My August post on this subject stretched my readers’ patience with technical detail. On the other hand, that column has generated a larger volume of discussion than any other in the history of this blog. For readers who are put off by numbers, I promise to get back to a juicier topic next week. But today, here’s another one for the geeks…
(This paragraph was added a few weeks later, 11/24/17, after I read some of the articles suggested by Dr Phillip Haycock.)
I had argued (below and the previous week) that GWAS tests are unreliable, and that there is no credible evidence that lengthening telomeres poses a risk of cancer. I still believe that GWAS tests are unreliable, but I have now found confirming evidence that associates longer telomeres with some cancers. This study of multiple myeloma begins with GWAS data, but then goes on to associate actual telomere length with MM risk. Multiple myeloma is a cancer of the bone marrow. This study does the same with lung cancer. This study was pure GWAS, but contrasted squamous cell cancer with melanoma. These are two types of skin cancer, but long telomeres protect against squamous cell cancer, while long telomeres are a risk factor for melanoma. I think these (and corroborating) studies constitute credible evidence that long telomeres increase the risk of melanoma, lung cancer, and multiple myeloma. For most other cancers and for heart disease, long telomeres are protective. I continue to believe that lengthening telomeres is a good strategy for life extension.
At least one mechanism for the protective benefit of long telomeres is easy to understand: Short telomeres lead to cellular senescence and SASP. I am still mystified by the mechanism by which long telomeres pose a risk.
While I was at the National Biological Institute in Beijing this past July, I taught a seminar to biology grad students which I called “Intuitive Statistics”. I asked them to put aside the powerful software that would calculate all manner of statistical indicators automatically, and instead to play with numbers in Excel, where they could see what they were doing, monitor each step, and think about why the results came out the way they did.
Already in 1954, Darrell Huff titled his all-time best-selling text, How to Lie with Statistics. Today’s menu-driven statistical software tempts the professional statistician to deceive himself first, others incidentally. The guts of the calculation are performed automatically. It’s so easy to obtain right answers to wrong questions. The professional division of labor between biologists and their statistical consultants adds abundant opportunity for miscommunication, and the spreading of responsibility among a large team of authors leads to the unintended consequence that no one feels the burden of personal responsibility that the reported results make sense.
The first principle is that you must not fool yourself — and you are the easiest person to fool.
— Richard Feynman
I wanted the students to begin to develop a feel for numbers that would inoculate them against the embarrassment of deep forays into their lab data that were fundamentally misguided. I knew that they would be working with professional statisticians, and I wanted them to be able to do back-of-the-envelope calculations that would tell them when the advice they were getting was outside the range of the plausible. Where the detailed answer differs from the back-of-the-envelope calculation, it’s important to understand the difference before assuming that the more sophisticated calculation is correct.
Here’s one of the exercises we did:
A is positively correlated with B. B is positively correlated with C. What do you expect about the relationship between A and C?
Of course, our first expectation is that A is likely to be positively correlated with C. Can you prove this? Can you think of a counter-example that disproves it? The answer, as it turns out, is that our expectation is only valid if the relationships (A,B) and (B,C) are quite strong. In that case, we are justified in assuming that (A,C) are likely to be a positive correlation. But it is not hard to come up with examples where the opposite is true. The correlations (A,B) and (B,C) can be highly significant, though less than 0.5, and (A,C) can be negatively correlated.
I asked the students to construct an example with made-up data. There are also plenty of real life examples. My favorite has been salt: Salt consumption is positively correlated with high blood pressure. High blood pressure is positively correlated with cardiovascular risk. But salt consumption is negatively correlated with CV risk. Yes, eating more salt may raise your blood pressure and also decrease your chance of having a heart attack. [Link to the course web page]

What this has to do with telomeres
Longer telomeres are positively correlated with certain genetic variants (SNPs). The SNPs are positively correlated with higher risk of cancer. A series of genetic studies [ref, ref, ref] claims, on this basis, that long telomeres pose a risk of cancer.
Advocates of this kind of study (called GWAS), say that it avoids mixup between cause and effect, because your genome is always a cause, never an effect. But the hitch in this reasoning is that we have to accept an extra level of indirection, so we’re really back where we started. What I mean is this: The authors are trying to establish that long telomeres can cause cancer. Their data shows that certain SNPs (genes) are correlated with long telomeres, and the same SNPs are correlated with cancer. So they conclude that
SNP ⇒ long telomeres ⇒ cancer
But they cannot exclude the possibility that
SNP ⇒ long telomeres AND
SNP ⇒ cancer (directly, bypassing the telomere)
This is especially problematic because the correlations are quite low – under 10% for each of the SNPs separately. The SNPs cause very small differences in telomere length, and the statisticians find very small differences in cancer risk. Then the software works automatically to “standardize” the result, and report what the cancer risk would have been if there had been a large difference in telomere length. For esoteric reasons of mathematics, the risk estimate is extrapolated exponentially. The result ends up looking quite scary. 5 times the risk of brain cancer and 3 times the risk of lung cancer for people whose telomere length is in the top 16% (1 sigma). The 2% with the longest telomeres (2 sigma) would be projected to have 10 times elevated rates of lung cancer and 28 times elevated risk of brain cancer.
Such high levels of risk for long telomeres have not been observed in previous studies that look directly (not through genetic intermediates) for correlations between disease and telomere length. What these studies have tended to show is small increases in some cancers, decreases in others connected to telomere length. If people in the top 2% of telomere length really had 28 times the risk of getting brain cancer, then more than half the people with brain cancer would have extra-long telomeres and everyone with brain cancer would have longer-than-average telomeres. It is difficult to imagine that such a huge effect could have been missed.
Phillip Haycock, first author of the large GWAS study I described last month, has been gracious enough to write to me generously and to comment directly on this blog page. Below, I respond to some of his comments (his comments in purple).
In observational studies almost everything is correlated with everything, making judgements about causality basically impossible. For example, observational studies tend to find that telomere length is associated with everything-under-the-sun (from meditation to stroke).
The way I think of it, the correlation motivates us to look for a plausible causal mechanism, and some are much easier to imagine than others. I don’t think anyone has proposed a theory that telomerase makes people more likely to take up a mediation practice. Common sense tells us the causal order is that meditation promotes release of telomerase, not vice versa. In the other direction, when we find that short telomeres now are predictive of disease several years down the road, we don’t argue that the future disease has reached back in time to cause telomere shortening.
So there are two possibilities: A) Short average telomere length usually means a high number of cells with critically short telomeres. These cells become senescent, and spew out inflammatory cytokines. The resultant inflammation is already known to be a cause of cancer, AD, and cardiovascular disease. B) The body has suffered infections and toxins in the past that have prompted extra cell divisions, shortening telomeres. The same infections and toxins have raised the risk of cancer, AD and CV disease by a mechanism that has nothing to do with telomeres.
Clearly, the presumption is in favor of (A), that short telomeres contribute to the diseases of old age. All the steps are filled in and previously established. This doesn’t disprove (B), but it establishes the burden of proof. For those who want to argue in favor of (B), the next logical step is to do a prospective study including as independent variables both telomere length and the infections, toxins, pollution, smoking, etc that could cause both telomere shortening and disease risk. This is exactly what was done in the Rode study two years ago, and they found that short telomeres were still correlated with cancer and (especially) CV disease even when correcting for history of infections and smoking. In fact, the correlations with infections and smoking were far weaker than the correlations with telomere length. At this point, (A) looks very strong.
In contrast, genetic variants do not generally correlate with classic environmental and lifestyle factors (predicted in theory by Mendel’s laws and observed in practice).
Let’s be specific here. The primary finding of GWAS studies like Haycock’s is that certain genetic variants (SNPs) are associated with slightly higher risk of cancer. The interpretation which Haycock and other authors offer is that the effect is indirect, mediated entirely by the effect of the SNP on telomere length
SNP ⇒ long telomeres ⇒ cancer
I note that
1) In contrast to (A) above, there is no plausible mechanism offered. The mechanism is never spelled out, but here is what I think is the implicit hypothesis: A pre-cancer cell is replicating and mutating. Because its telomeres are slightly longer than others, it has more time to mutate before it runs out of telomere and dies of cell senescence. Therefore the pre-cancer with long telomeres has a higher probability of neoplastic conversion than a cell line with shorter telomeres.
I think the reason that this hypothesis remains implicit and is not spelled out (let alone tested with computational models) is that it doesn’t make sense quantitatively. The difference in telomere length from the most powerful of these SNPs is a fraction of 1%. This corresponds on average to much less than one cell division. It’s hard to imagine this having a detectable effect on cancer risk.
2) The correlation between each of these SNPs and telomere length is very low, accounting typically for less than ½% of the variance in telomere length. SNPs generally have more than one effect. So it is easy to imagine that some of the SNPs have a direct effect on cancer risk.
3) The direct effect doesn’t have to be very large. All of the observed increases in cancer risk associated with the SNPs are under 25%. Odds ratios less than 1.25 are generally discounted in epidemiology, and for good reason.
4) Another plausible explanation for the observed correlation is that SNPs are not randomly distributed through the population, but are significantly correlated with many other genetic, geographic and cultural variants. Let’s spell out the premise of “Mendelian randomization”: Literally, it relies on the assumption that nothing that could be associated with cancer risk is at all correlated with the “telomere SNP.” Of course, this is very far from being true. As Haycock says – everything is correlated.
This kind of thing is a hazard in all forms of epidemiology; but what makes it more treacherous in this case is that the effect you’re looking at is so small. OR<1.25. This can be caused by literally thousands of different associations unrelated to telomeres. For example, these SNPs may be associated with more people from cultures that have higher rates of smoking; more people of African descent; more people who come from Northern climates… Haycock doesn’t control for any of these possibilities, and, of course, neither do any of the other authors of GWAS studies. Controlling for other variables is supposed to be unnecessary because of “Mendelian randomization”. But in reality, Mendelian randomization is far from complete.
Observational studies of directly measured telomere length provide opposite conclusion.
Our findings are generally in strong agreement with prospectively designed observational studies (where telomere length is measured before cancer diagnosis). The apparent conflict you cite is almost entirely due to the retrospective studies, where telomere length is measured after cancer diagnosis, and which generally do find that shorter telomeres increase cancer risk. In my opinion this is due to reverse causation bias…
The only observational study that I referenced was Rode, because it’s the only one I have read carefully, and because it is the largest (65,000 people), it uses a homogeneous population, and (crucially) telomere length is measured before onset of disease.
Contrary to your claim, our findings are in strong agreement with the findings from these studies. The studies are large with samples sizes ranging from 47,000 to 96,000. The main studies are:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23468462
“…Short telomere length is…not [associated] with cancer risk”
Short telomeres are associated with older ages. In any study that includes a range of ages, there is a choice of ways to tease apart the effect of age. Age always wins, but some statistical methods will make it look like age is the whole story, while others will say that short telomeres are a risk independent of age.
This study found a strong correlation between short telomeres and incidence of cancer, also of short telomeres and risk of death from cancer. After correcting for age, the association with cancer incidence disappeared, but the association with death from cancer remained strong. I can’t see how this is “in strong agreement” with your claim that short telomeres protect against both cancer incidence and mortality.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25862531
“…genetically determined short telomeres were associated with low cancer mortality…”
This is the Rode study, about which I have written extensively. A small part of the Rode study used GWAS methodology, and its conclusions were, unsurprisingly, more similar to other GWAS studies than to conclusions in the main section of the same paper.
Results are due to direct effect of SNPs on cancer
This possibility would be a violation of assumption 3 above – that the SNPs affect cancer exclusively via their effect on telomere length. Horizontal pleiotropy is a well known genetic phenomenon that could induce such direct associations between SNPs and cancer that bypass telomere length. This is the most important potential limitation of Mendelian randomization studies. We observed some evidence for this in our results and we admit in the discussion that we cannot entirely exclude this possibility.
Remember that all it takes is a very small direct effect to mimic the very large indirect effect.
“The new studies require very large implicit extrapolation that is not necessary in the old studies. The 50 to 1 extrapolation is very speculative, and it magnifies the noise along with the signal.” We standardise the results to reflect a 1-SD (standard deviation) change in telomere length and therefore you are correct that we are extrapolating beyond the observed effect sizes of the SNPs. However, the extrapolation you describe is more like a 7 to 1 than 50 to 1 extrapolation because the average effect size of the SNPs is 0.13 SD units per copy of the telomere length raising allele.
Thanks for this information! I didn’t have the number 0.13 when I was writing the column last month, and in fact I assumed 0.05. Working backwards from reported odds ratio of 5.27 for brain cancer, I said they must have started with 1.08; working backwards from reported odds ratio of 3.19 for lung cancer, I said they must have started with 1.06. These numbers should be corrected to 1.24 and 1.16, respectively.
These numbers are still very low. Epidemiology is well-known to be full of uncertainties, and an odds ratio of 1.24 is just near the lower edge of what might be considered actionable. For the genetic telomere studies, however, it is the highest risk ratio they observed (reported as 5.27 times extra risk for brain cancer).
Question for Dr Haycock: Is 0.13 sigma the average increase (or decrease) in telomere length for subjects in your study? How was the 0.13 computed? Is it consistent with Table 1 in your paper, in which the highest percent of variance in telomere length explained by any one SNP was less than 0.5% ?
You write about GWAS and Mendelian randomization as if they are the same techniques. They are actually quite distinct methodologies and analytical approaches. In GWAS we measure the association between genetic variants and human traits across 100s of thousands to millions of loci across the genome (focus is gene-trait association). Mendelian randomization is the use of genetic variants as instrumental variables to appraise causality in hypothesized exposure-disease associations (i.e. the focus is the exposure-disease association).
Thank you for the correction. I gather that, though GWAS studies rely upon Mendelian randomization, the term “Mendelian Randomization Study” is reserved for a different animal.
“Another possibility is that one or more of the SNPs happen to be more common in a segment of the population that is prone to cancer, for whatever reason.” The problem you are referring to is known as confounding by population stratification – the tendency of cases and controls to have slightly different genetic ancestries and which can introduce confounding into genetic association studies. This issue is taken very seriously by genome-wide association studies. We did our best to take this into account. For example, our analyses were either adjusted for principal component scores of genome-wide genetic variation or we found little evidence for population stratification in diagnostic plots (these are standard techniques in the field). However, I agree and acknowledge in the paper that we can’t entirely rule out this possibility. More details in the discussion section of the paper.
Agreed.
[Concerning tradeoff between benefit for heart disease and liability for cancer]: We don’t know what the net benefits are at the population level and can’t infer that from our study. This requires detailed statistical modelling of absolute as well as relative risks.
This is a computation that I did myself, very approximately, combining risk ratios from the Haycock study with data on death rates from each of the cancers, and from heart disease. The answer that I got was that in the Haycock study, the two effects approximately cancel each other out, but in the epidemiological studies there is a large net benefit from longer telomeres. I didn’t think it worthwhile to do the computation more precisely because the data it relied on was highly uncertain.
Evolutionary tradeoff
There’s an interesting literature about potential evolutionary tradeoffs in cancer and vascular disease risk and the impact of body size and telomere length. Cancer incidence doesn’t seem to increase with increasing mammal body size (about same rates in mice and humans, known as Peto’s paradox). See this interesting review on “Telomere Length and the Cancer–Atherosclerosis Trade-Off”:
This study, published just this last summer, claims that, in humans, telomerase levels have evolved to be low and telomeres short, creating an optimal compromise between deaths from cancer and deaths from CV disease.
As you have guessed, I’m skeptical. I have staked my career on the thesis that the evolutionary theory of aging on which this paper is based is wrong. However, the paper cites several references on telomere length and cancer which I will read with an open mind.
[Savage, 2013; Anic, 2013; Nan, 2011; Machiela, 2014; Seow, 2014; Sanchez-Esperidion, 2014; Pellatt, 2013; Qu, 2013; Lynch, 2013; Julin, 2015]
How I see it: Aging is an evolved adaptation. Telomeres are short on purpose, as a clock that regulates lifespan.
Discussion
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I know this was a long time ago now, but I've finally cracked this.
Someone posted a recent paper about smoking and both long and short telomere length being independent risk factors for lung cancer - it was reported here:
http://www.oncotherapynetwork.com/lung-cancer-targets/are-longer-telomere-lengths-risk-factor-lung-cancer
Anyway I made several quite lame attempts to explain it, but I've now finally cracked it!
It's no surprise short telomeres can cause cancer as chromosomal fusions, rearrangements etc., which are a hallmark of cancer, are caused by critically short telomeres. But the independent association with long telomeres, smoking, and lung cancer (Plus some of the rarer cancers and long telomeres, which is discussed both elsewhere and in this thread) has been a real puzzle. But here is my solution.
A pre malignant cell will grow, ignoring instructions from its neighbours and is able to overcome p53 arrest, probably due to a mutation in that gene or one of its downstream critical targets. But it still hits replicative senescence. This is only a temporary obstacle for cancer, but it's a chance for the immune system to zero in on the inflammatory signals and destroy the cells. But as we grow older replicative senescence amongst other things means that immune surveillance is failing. So cancer cells start growing again, run out of telomeres completely, and chromosomes start fusing, breaking, rearranging via transposons, etc. Basically all hell breaks loose and pretty much all the cells die. But something like 1 in 3 million cells will manage to re-elongate telomeres, probably due to just the right chromosomal rearrangement activating HTERT, or maybe ALT. Then you have a real cancer that most likely will become clinical and you will need treatment or die. So where do long telomeres come in?
It's easy to win the lottery if you buy enough tickets!
It's all about the number of cells a pre-malignant, misbehaving, but still mortal cell can generate. Say a youngish fibroblast can double another 30 times (that's conservative, they can probably double 50 times if they're brand new) so that's 2^30 = 10^9 cells! An old cell with only 10 doublings left can only make 2^10 = 1000 cells (approx). That's a massive difference when you think about the 1 in 3 million chance of immortalisation each cell has. With only a 1000 bad cells, you're still probably okay (1 in 300k chance of immortalisation). But with a mass of a billion cells in chromosomal crisis, your days are surely numbered.
So now we see the two perils evolution must steer between: death by cancer versus death by senescence. The proliferative potential of young cells means that telomeres must be strictly limited to reduce the chance an out of control cell can 'win the lottery' and immortalise. (Even if only immune cells had very long telomeres, and all other cancers were destroyed by it, we'd just get blood cancer.) But limit telomeres too much and we all die young from senescence.
Now obviously lung cancer is mainly caused by (the mutation/s caused by) smoking, not long telomeres. But it goes to show that in this case longer is not always better; we want telomeres long enough that the cells are healthy, can divide normally and perform all their normal functions. But no longer!
Mark - This is a good story. It hangs together. I think it's as good a hypothesis as any I've seen. But that doesn't mean it's true, or even probably true. Biology is full of surprises and theorists like me have eaten humble pie too often to get excited prematurely. The only way to know if this is right is to design a series of in vitro and in vivo experiments to test various predictions and to meticulously collect the data, honestly evaluate it. - Josh
@Akshay, all,
Regarding my comments on another thread a while ago about N(R) - yes I did indeed make reference to Vince Giulianos blog and his reference in part 4 or 5 of his 5 part series on NAD+ that he felt there could be/is a negative feedback loop. I also made the stupid comment "akshay, what on earth does this have to do with NAD+ levels" - and I apologize for my rudeness.
From what I can glean from VG's present protocol he is actually still taking N(R) along with pterostilbene or at least he lists in it in his recent blog entitled 'On Aging' ... I have now added in back into my regimen but intermittently.
BTW - after RE-reading VG's blog he makes reference to the 'Apigenin' as being a supplement that if taken will REDUCE body's drawdown of NAD+ thereby increasing the amount of NAD+ ... and interestingly I notice that Life Extension Foundation has just very recently altered their Two-Per Day multi-vitamin to no longer include 1mg per day of N(R) and instead include 5mg of Apigenin ... may be a way of approaching the NAD+ from the 'reduce the drawdown' side of the equation instead of increasing the endogenous production side ...
Sincerely, Aslan
Thank you Aslan for the update. I am now more interested thanks to you in augmenting NAD+ via NQo1 for which I have multiple strategies. There is no doubt though about the benefit of increasing levels of NAD+ as we age since David Sinclair recently has shown us the critical role it plays in DNA repair. Also I never get slighted by criticism when I know the intention is to uphold the safety and integrity of our nascent anti aging community. All fellow researchers are my comrades in our war against aging.
Hi Asian
One thing about apigenin is poor bio-availability when taken as a supplement. We have known for a while that foods like parsley, celery, and chamomile have significant anti-cancer properties, but it was only fairly recently that apigenin was identified as the common denominator . Might consider taking the actual food supplements as your apigenin source since they may give better availability
Dr. Rivas, all,
Thank you!!
There isn't a time that I log on here that I don't learn something,
Regards,
Aslan
Awesome discussion on blue zones all - definitely a great deal to think about.
I've often wondered about stress, and how, mechanistically, the mind-body interface effects lifespan. I think it might be via an inflammatory pathway (with consequent effects of both telomeres and mitochondria). The reason I think this is based on the work of one K J Tracey. This is a good paper:
Controlling inflammation: the cholinergic anti-inflammatory pathway (free access)
This for me explains the benefits of meditation on telomeres, the ability of people like Wim Hof to adjust his own immune responses, and even ties in well with Josh's previous post on the hypothalamus.
It is a little hard to get your head around at first, but is a nice short paper and I would really value everyone's input on this one.
Will check out that paper today.
If you look at the very detailed study on Nicoya which I referenced in a prior post you'll notice some very interesting things. The men have the longest lifespans in the world. Only 30% of them are physically active, the diet is high in saturated fat as well as omega 3's. All of their lipid numbers tend to be high.Their diet is a low glycemic one, high in fiber and low in omega 6's.
Despite a high fat diet , meats of all sorts, 70% not active, and high cholesterols across the board, they have very long telomeres and a Very low incidence of cardiovascular disease. When they do die, and it's usually quite old, they die of cancer.
It lends support to the idea that long telomeres greatly reduce cardiovascular risk, even in the face of less than ideal behaviors and biomarkers.
They do die of cancer but not at a young age, probably due to attrition to a high percent of critically short telomeres, but as usual we don't have the distributions.
All the discussion about Okinawa and the Blue Zones is both fascinating and useful. I am going to include coconut oil and goat cheese in my diet as a first step.
It seems to me that stress is a immensely complicated subject and it looks very confusing to me.
I would tend to think that stress related to release of catecholamine hormones is bad for longevity because it increases blood pressure, heart rate and so on.
On the other hand, if we take the example of Yisrael Kristal again, it is hard to imagine that the extreme form of stress he has suffered in camp has been bad for his longevity.
Stress plays a role in long term memory consolidation, which is mediated by mTOR:
"mTOR is essential for corticosteroid effects on hippocampal AMPA receptor function and fear memory"
http://learnmem.cshlp.org/content/22/12/577.short
We experience all kinds of stress in our day-to-day life (pressure during tough exams or during various challenging professional tasks). How do we know which forms of stress is bad and which one is not? Is it fair to say that stress is bad when it become excessive and chronic but can be good at low levels or if it does not last long?
BTW, I have tried yoga and meditation and it always makes me feel good on the moment but my impression is that it takes many years of practice to be able to use it to reduce stressful situations.
Hi Aldebaran,
If you read Man's Search For Meaning by Victor Frankl, it is possible to see how even in a concentration camp the right mindset can help you survive, or the wrong one can literally kill you.
One of the best books ever written
Hi Mark,
Thanks! Looks like a very interested reading.
I have just ordered it on Amazon.
Paul, Mark,
fascinating discussion about the vagus nerve. I didn't know anything about that.
Aldebaran
Look at the amazing study they did on rheumatoid arthritis, and how all of the symptoms were resolved with a vagal nerve stimulator. Excellent proof of concept
Paul,
I have looked at it yesterday (although in much less depth than you). Very impressive. Could be a breakthrough for RA and other inflammatory diseases.
I read the study and the implications are potentially important. We know that someone has good vagal tone if their heart rate goes up with inspiration and down with expiration. We can increase vagal tone with valsalva, carotid sinus massage, and coughing. These maneuvers are sometimes sufficient to convert someone in supraventricular tachycardia back to a sinus rhythm.
In the study it is demonstrated that stress leads to chronic inflammation and that the cholinergic response mediated by the vagus nerve can block cytokines and thus reduce inflammation. You are thinking of this as meditation being the mechanism of increased cholinergic activity which is indeed true. But one would expect that a more potent form of vagal stimulation could resolve even very significant forms of chronic inflammation such as occur in auto-immune diseases.
This same author did indeed do a follow-up where they implanted a small vagal nerve stimulator in patients with RA and significantly reduced inflammation and patient outcomes. " vagus nerve stimulation inhibits cytokine production and attenuates disease severity in rheumatoid arthritis". July 2016
This has even more implications. A patient is coming to see me this week who was recently worked up at The John and found to have RA, but he wants to try LDN, rather than the very expensive drugs that block TNF and can give lymphomas. Im now thinking that going one pathway with ldn and another with a vagal implant could spare many patients from having to get on the TNF alpha inhibitors. Those drugs are now multi-billion dollars a year revenue for big pharma.
Just think if you can achieve the same results with a safe and cheap drug along with a simple implantable device.
1 more reply
Hi Mark,
What has been described is a REFLEX system
The afferent arm detects chronic inflammation and sends message to hypothalamus.
Then efferent arm stops inflammation through action macrophages.
This show nervous system interacting with immune system.
However described as reflex.
Reflex does not imply voluntary control, cerebral cortical input or mediation.
This is not to say psychological stress could impact inflammation. Just not related to vagus nerve reflex pathway.
Hi Alan, you are right in that it is not commonly thought of as being under conscious control. However I think that it is, through certain breathing exercises. For example heart rate variability (HRV) can be increased through various methods such as meditation, or cold showers, and this metric is inversely correlated with mortality from cardiovascular disease.
Hi Mark.
You have made good points.
Vagus nerve part autonomic nervous system not under voluntary control. A few people have developed tricks to control autonomic NS by their will, (mediation, etc) so perhaps those people can use same trick to reduce inflammation.
However, for everybody else, autonomic NS as well as adrenals glands release catecholamines (adrenalin) in responds to how we feel (anger, fear, fight or flight etc. In medical office have white coat syndrome in which little stress makes blood pressure go up. You have shown another mechanism (autonomic nervous system, vagus nerve) where stress can increase or decrease inflammation. So inflammation can be increased both through autonomic nervous system and endocrine system. On body level main effect is elevated blood pressure and on cellular level increase in mTOR and shorter telomeres
USA now undergoing interesting medical experiment to see effect of increased stress caused by madman running the country on American's health. Lucky for you, can observe from safety of Europe.
Politics is going through some strange changes worldwide Alan. Not much better in Europe!
I'm very impressed with the potential of the vagus nerve for anti inflammatory treatment too Paul. I think it might be worth a search for current supplements or dietary interventions to affect that pathway, prior to the availability of bioelectrical implants.
I am not the first to point this out, but C60 might be one such intervention, given its accumulation in the spleen.
ChromaDex Announces Top-line Results of its Second Human Clinical Trial on NR
http://investors.chromadex.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=212121&p=irol-newsArticle&ID=2302806
Looks like the stuff is working as expected (raising NAD+ consistently) with no toxicity detected:
" The study confirms not only efficacy in raising NAD+, but also definitively documents the safety of daily use of NR. "
Hi Aldebaran
Nice results. Seems a little short on details though. Also not sure that you can state long term safety so definitely based on eight weeks.
Hi Paul,
I agree 100% with you. This is just a press release, not a scientific publication. And of course this is a short term study. No claim about long term safety can be made.
My guess is that they will release a scientific publication in the coming months with more details.
The only positive information I get out of it is that NAD+ seems to be raised consistently during the whole time (which is still relatively short). I have heard critics saying that the effect of NR on NAD+ was transient but this does not seems to be the case.
As always, let's wait for more data,
Hi Aldebaran
You make a good point. I only seem to need to take it twice a week for good effect, just based on how I feel with it. Mark says that it doesn't take much to induce mitophagy ,and he seems to have a way to know when mitophagy is triggered, but I'm not sure how. Will need to ask him that.
Of course this is confounded by the fact the study is carried out by ChromaDex.
Two big unanswered questions. 1. What is the metabolic path of NR to NAD; more to the point is it worth paying through the nose for Niagen over just taking Nicotinamide and Ribose (N plus R) separately? I've experimented with large doses of the two separately and it seemed effective at triggering mitophagy. Incidentally I do not think NAD needs to be elevated for very long to do this, so NR isn't something you need to take everyday.
2. When are we going to see any lifespan extension in mice from taking either NR or N+R?
1 and 2 need to be answered before we can get too excited about this supplement.
Hi Mark,
100% agree with you on 1 and 2.
For 2, independent mice life span studies at ITP with NR have already started in 2016:
https://www.nia.nih.gov/research/dab/interventions-testing-program-itp/compounds-testing
ITP is the gold standard in my opinion so I trust their studies. We would have to wait ~ 3 more years to have the results though,
I would like to see more discussion on intermediate dosing of NR. Have been taking 500 mg daily, but some days have less energy not more. Will try taking 500 mg 3X week, and see how I feel. 71 yo male on weekly Rapa + Metformin daily.
Three questions,
1. Are we only taking NR to induce mitophagy?
2. Mark how do you tell when mitophagy is triggered.
3.. Do our cells have to be constantly flooded with NAD+ for us to feel good and have more energy.
There are other reasons it's good to have NAD+ at youthful levels, but I would say the number 1 benefit is mitophagy.
You will have lower energy and be tired from mitophagy as you have smaller and less mitochondria. This is how I know it is working when I have taken megadoses of N and R. I am not sure how much of an effect 500mg of NR would have, probably not enough to feel a very great effect, but day after day I would expect fatigue to set in. I would then advise a break, get some good fats in (I used 90% dark chocolate) to stop mitophagy and then you can use something like PQQ to encourage the mitos to increase their numbers.
I would be interested to hear others' take on this, but I see this kind of protocol as an intermittent one like taking rapamycin, rather than just another daily supplement.
Thanks for getting back to me in a timely manner. You must be in Europe because it is early morning in US. I'm in Spain. The very few studies by Bremmer and Basis showed that there was a limit to how much NR could raise NAD in the cell. (somewhere around 500 mg NR daily) Although NAAD was substantially raised (47 times) with the 1000 mg NR dose. 1000 mg daily for 7 days on himself. Dr. Bremmer is a consultant for Chromadex.
I'm curious as to the purpose of taking mega doses of NR or N+R by yourself.
Hi Mark
On Sunday AM I take 2mg's of rapa. At 7 PM I take NR and begin a 24hour water fast. I'll work out on Monday even while fasting. Do you agree with this regimen or could it be improved upon? You know more about it than I do.
As an aside , I also take dark chocolate 100% cocoa.
Make sure that it's baker's or endangered species brands, all others have very high cadmium levels
Hi Paul,
Thanks for pointing out high cadmium levels in chocolate bars. This is an important point. I will switch to endangered species.
It's interesting that autophagy goes up 3 fold by 24 hours of a water fast, but this study also shows a very significant increase in mitophagy as well. But mitophagy markedly drops at 48 hours of a fast while autophagy continues, thus suggesting different pathways. So if fasting, 24 hours would seem to be ideal.
Time dependent differential effects of fasting on cardiac autophagy and mitophagy.
A slam,U. Fageb journal . April 2016 Vol 30
As a side note, African chocolate contains less cadmium than chocolate originating from South America. Enjoy ...
Aslan had mentioned here that according to Vince Giuliano we develop a resistance to NAD+ induced by NR so that would mean increasing dosage for same amount of upregulation. He said NAD+ upregulated by NQo1 was more sustainable. Just thought I would share what I recall
Smaller doses may have worked as well Van, but as nicotinamide and d-ribose are cheap as chips I just took a large dose of both in one go.
There is a whole thread devoted to this on Longecity called 'Manipulating mitochondrial dynamics' if you are interested in reading more about people experimenting with this.
I would not be surprised Akshay if the body doesn't let you keep NAD+ elevated for more than a few days, but like I said I think you only need to spike it now and again anyway, at least from the point of view of mitophagy.
Hi Paul,
Thanks for the tip on the Dark Choc.
I don't do much fasting other than leaving at least 12 hours between dinner and breakfast. I am sure it's beneficial to do more than this, but after a rapamycin cycle I definitely want my food!
It's not specific to chocolate:
“The food groups that contribute most of the dietary cadmium exposure are cereals and cereal products, vegetables, nuts and pulses, starchy roots or potatoes, and meat and meat products. Also tobacco smoking can contribute to a similar internal exposure as that from the diet.”
There may be some Cadburyium in some chocolate, however.
Interesting look at effects of exercise on mitophagy
Laker, Rhianna C. AMPK phosphorylation of ULK 1 required for....... mitophagy.
Nature communications Article 548 2017
Mitophagy is a very interesting process. Mitochondria are constantly fusing and fissioning. Fused mitochondria share their loops of mtDNA and this means any mutations can be compensated for. Therefore fused mitochondria are more efficient at producing ATP. But fission breaks mitochondria into their smallest constituent parts, and any mitos with mutations that affect their ability to produce ATP show up through their low membrane potential and are tagged for destruction. Therefore fission allowing culling of the weakest members of the herd, leaving only the fittest to undergo mitobiogensis.
If we are always in a well fed, resting state NAD/NADH ratio is low and fusion predominates. But if we are exercising, particularly very high effort exercise, the NAD/NADH ratio goes up and fission and mitophagy is iniated. This occurs through a temporary jump in ROS levels and mitochondrial uncoupling.
As we get older we tend to have more poor quality mitochondria, unless we are very active. Supplements such as Niagen also aim to raise NAD, thereby keeping mitochondria healthy.
I am very interested in, but don't yet understand the links between healthy mitochondria, the health of our nuclear DNA and telomeres, and inflammation. They are all clearly linked, but it is hard to see which, if any, is primary in aging. Sometimes I think mitochondria and ROS is absolutely the most important thing driving aging (along with MTOR).. Othertimes it just seems like the weakest link that causes apoptosis in an already ailing system. It is very frustrating.
Just my 2 cents worth: Mitochondria are more important in driving aging, but chronic inflammation is more important in driving age-related disease, and when you have mitochondrial dysfunction in the presence of chronic inflammation you get that most frequent deadly confluence of aging and disease, both of which effect telomere length and DNA instability in a negative fashion.
Hi Mark
Very interesting but I thought NR raised NADH
I believe it is NAD+ that is raised, as in mimicking a state of calorie restriction or high effort exercise. This leads to mitophagy. More NAD+ also helps with many other things such as DNA repair.
It would be interesting to see if mice on CR have their NAD+ raised even more with NR or if there is a kind of threshold effect.
Also, same question on young athletes.
BTW, do we know if rapamycin elevate NAD+ as well?
Hi Mark,
What is primary in aging, elevated mTOR or mitochondria/ROS.
I will provide the Blagosklonny answer to this extremely important question you present.
Aging is not programmed, so there is no pre-determined time frame for aging. All the bad things can happen at different time line for different people; however there is a generally a common pattern.
The question must be discussed in relation to age of person.
In persons 65-85 aging is dominated by elevated mTOR. Initial presentation is most commonly central fat increase, with increase of waist/hip ratio. When ratio greater than 1.0, you are very much suffering from elevated mTOR. Later elevated mTOR presents with common age-related disease: atherosclerosis, strokes, diabetes and complications, Alzheimer's disease, increase cancer risk. etc. Aging morbidity from elevated mTOR goes on 20 years or more. If survive elevated mTOR arrive at what Blagosklonny calls Post Aging Syndrome.
This is 95-105 time frame. At this age one encounters all the highly fatal aging conditions. In this time frame, disease related to mitochondria/ROS are probably the dominant factor.
So if you are talking about somebody 75, the dominant problem is elevated mTOR.
If 100, it is probably acute and chronic mitochondrial disease which causes death.
As regards "chronic inflammation" which Paul mentioned as dominant factor, chronic inflammation is surrogate term for the disease process involving all the usual suspects driven by elevated mTOR in large number of different tissues, different organs and different age-related diseases.
In aging, I would describe elevated mTOR as just the appetizer, the goal is to get to the main course, which will kill you for sure. I think main course is mitochondria.
Hi Alan,
Thanks a lot for providing your perspective on aging.
I believe we have now at our disposal various ways to control mTOR (rapamycin, CR, maybe more speculative ways such as 17-alpha-estradiol and certainly others I am not aware of). Problem is what can we do to prevent mitochondria decline?
Raising NAD+ to encourage mito fission? But this is already what exercise is doing and we cannot expect to live significantly longer with just exercise can we?
Most studies suggest that exercise alone gives about 3 additional years. Of course there is much debate about intensity and duration of exercise.
Hi Aldebaran,
You summed if up very well.
Here is plan: If age 65, try to stay healthy for next 20 years with anti-aging formula including rapa, exercise, CR, etc.
Then in 20 years hopefully will be better interventions for problems beyond mTOR.
Considering extraordinary advances in understanding aging in past 10 years, next 20 years may have excellent new developments.
Until then just stay healthy; because nothing will ever reverse end stage organ damage.
And save your money; because any new drug is going to be very expensive and medicare (LOL) not paying for it.
I get the distinct impression that Blagosklonny says ROS is a main cause of death beyond MTOR because ROS is a well known theory of aging and Blagosklonny is being polite about what might happen if and when MTOR is suspended indefinitely.
I personally don't think it is so simple that there are separate mechanisms of aging lining up to kill us one after the other like big bosses in a video game.
I suspect MTOR upsets metabolic balance and this degrades mitocho dial function and increases ROS. MTOR increases inflammation, as does increased ROS. Both increase the pace of telomere loss, plus short telomeres also cause mitochondrial dysfunction and senescent cells that contribute to inflammation. Any one of these can start the decline, exacerbate one another, and any one could individually kill us too, I expect.
I tend to agree with Alan that MTOR happens first, but I'm not so sure we have that totally licked with rapamycin or calorie restriction, because neither of these reduces MTOR to nothing (this woukd kill us), and anyway the other aging mechanisms feed back into it anyway.
I think all current interventions are slowing down the pace of aging and reversing some very small aspects of it, but we are yet to come up with anything to actually reverses it.
That is why telomeres are interesting because lengthening them resets most of the gene expression to that of young cells, regardless of what caused them to get short in the first place.
I will take happily the 3 extra years from exercising / diet and maybe the 5 to 10 extra years from controlling mTOR. Beyond that seems to be in the yet-to-be-discovered zone.
One thing is puzzling me though with rapamycin. It is was only slowing the rate of aging during treatment, we would expect a transient treatment to not have any significant effect on life span. However this study found the opposite:
"Transient rapamycin treatment can increase lifespan and healthspan in middle-aged mice"
http://europepmc.org/articles/pmc4996648
So it is as if rapamycin could hardcode the body into a slow aging state for the rest of the life. I don't find that easy to understand.
Note that it is associated with significant more hematologic malignancies in females.
Something you would not want to try on yourself lightly.
Hi Aldebaran
The study you quoted used extremely high doses of rapamycin, to the extent where the females (who metabolize it better than males), had seriously suppressed immune systems leading to aggressive cancers.
They took the dose for 3 months, which I estimate is the equivalent of a human doing the same for 7 years, so we should expect some lasting effect on aging, but yes it is suprising to get such a big effect from a transient treatment. I am guessing that once the body has become used to such a treatment the effects on metabolism, mitochondria and microbiome among other things can last for a long time.
Hi Paul,
So these extremely high doses of rapamycin were not even particularly toxic for males which is certainly a good sign for the safety of rapamycin doesn't it?
But didn't you find intriguing that short period exposure to rapamycin prolongs life span significantly more than the time of exposure itself?
I am wondering if we could have such an effect with transient CR. If not, it would suggest to me that rapamycin does something more profound than CR.
Also, it would be interesting to try transient rapa at different ages (on mice). They tried only at 20 months I think. And what if we try transient rapa at two ages (10 months and 20 months for example) Would the mice have additional life span increase?
Mark, Paul,
You were right to pointed out that 3 months in mice translate to 7 years in human so 'transient' need to be relativized.
Hi Alan,
Good point about Yisrael Kristal. But holocaust survivors were so badly nourished that it was probably far from being the standard CR without malnutrition. Still, could be very informative to see if holocaust survivors tend to outlived their expected life span (although one possible confounding factor is that the ones who survived had likely higher stress resistance than normal).
In any case, really really terrible period. Need to remember that first.
That is very interesting about the world's oldest man. And perhaps it hints at the answer to the question of why higher mammals do not seem to benefit to the extent as mice with calorie restriction. It isn't severe enough. If one man, through horrific circumstance over 5 months can have his epigenetics permanently changed, then maybe metabolism is more flexible in humans that we think.
Or I could be completely wrong and he is just an outlier who survived because he was already adapted by chance to severe conditions.
Hi Mark,
I agree. Yisrael Kristal is just one data point but still interesting because the probability for a men to live to 110 is one over several millions I think (let alone 113) so it is so exceptional that it is legitimate to think that extreme CR could have played a role.
If indeed we could reprogram epigenetic through CR or rapamycin, it would be a very interesting news (even if not practical currently because requiring some extreme conditions).
It is more than n=1. Besides Yisrael Kristal, a female Holocaust survivor, Alice Herz-Sommer, lived to 110. I think CR works that same way as the saying, Was mich nicht umbringt, macht mich stärker. (What does not kill me, makes me stronger.)
There might be a way to test this. Instead of weekly rapamycin you could try doubling the dose but only taking it every other week. Then when you're used to that doubling it again it taking it only monthly. That way you are getting deeper but shorter bouts of MTOR inhibition. At some point metabolism might be permanently altered in favour of a longer life.
Hi Alan
I'm wondering what it is exactly that we wish to achieve including anyone who comments here? Is it a healthy 100 or maybe 150? Is it just longecity at any level of health? Is it immortality?
What is it that we really want?
I'm not totally sure of that answer myself.
Hi Paul,
Good question. I think goal is:
"Be All You Can Be".
I don't think this is off-track at all Paul.
Of course the first aim is not to die in the immediate future, and the more distant goal is to break free of the ever present worry of not having enough time to do all that you want, or might want to do in the future.
To do that we need to, as Aubrey de Grey says, 'bring aging under full medical control.'
I don't agree thst Aubrey de Grey is part of the problem. I do think the 1000 year lifespan claim was ill advised, but we all know how easy it is to have one thing you say taken out of context and repeated. He actually says he is working on giving people another 30 years of healthy life. And it seems his arguments are starting to be heard by those with the money and power to make things happen.
I see rapamycin treatment as very useful for those in the age range you mention Alan, but for those younger it is most definitely a stop gap solution until senolytics and telomerase or stem cell therapy become a reality. Yes the FDA stands in the way of that path but I think that will not last once governments realise they are all going to go bankrupt within 15 years with the coming tidal wave of old people that aren't able to work anymore. Cheaper by far to get behind and pay for this.
This symposium is a little dull right now so I'm scouring through Oncotarget, the journal where Blagosklonny is editor-in-chief, and came across this:
Six Plant Extracts delay yeast chronological aging through different signaling pathways. Oncotarget. 7 (32) 2016 Aug 9.
I recall Josh doing a post in 2015 on a possible anti-aging polypill where there would be additive effects. This study was quite convincing regarding these 7 plant extracts, both individually and in in synergy.
Black Cohosh
Valerian
Celery seed
Passion Flower
Gingko
White Willow Bark. This one in particular increased the mean lifespan of yeast by 475% and the maximal cls by 369% ! More than rapamycin did.
This study got through the peer review of Blago and others, all of these PE's are relatively harmless, and may have very significant effects.
I will be adding these to my rapamycin and ldn
I read that too Paul.
My only quibble is that white willow bark is basically aspirin, is it not?
Yes it is but less chance of GI issues. If you look at the study showing life extension with ASA, it took a ton of aspirin ( at least in mice)
I'm more concerned about black cohosh which seems to have some estrogen in effects
This reminds me the results obtained on mice with alphastradiol at ITP. Very impressive life extension on males but not on females (median ls increase 19% max ls increase 12%). Max ls increase was even better than rapa + met on males: (median 23%, max ls: 10%).
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/acel.12496/full
Problem is: at the high dosage they use is it feminizing? Not sure how to interpret the following.
"Although 17aE2 is generally thought to be ‘non-feminizing’, there is evidence that 17aE2 can have uterotrophic effects (Clark et al., 1982). 17aE2 at 4.8 ppm, as used in our previous report (Harrison et al., 2014), had no significant effects on uterine weight when fed to ovariectomized mice (Fig. S2, Supporting information, P = 0.44). However, we considered the possibility that it might be uterotrophic at the higher dose (14 ppm) used in our current study. We therefore tested for estrogenic effects of the 17aE2 at 14 ppm in young- and middle-aged ovariectomized UM-HET3 mice bred at UT. As shown in Figure S2 (Supporting information), the 14.4 ppm 17aE2 diet fed to ovariectomized mice for 6 weeks increased uterine weight to a level statistically indistinguishable from that of intact controls. Additionally, mice fed the high dose had mean uterine weights significantly higher than that of the ovariectomized control group (P = 0.0014)."
I think males should avoid anything estrogenic including black cohosh and even soy. The synergy of rapamycin with metformin has been discussed. I find metformin difficult to tolerate, but a lecture today by a prominent British oncologist, professor Angus Dalgleish, revealed that in cancer patients metformin is extremely well tolerated even at high doses. He discovered the CD4 receptor site involved in HIV by the way.
In cancer patients he uses ldn, metformin,and cannabinoids with remarkable success, with or without adjuvant radiation and chemo.
He has a remarkable theory about how cannabioids work in cancer. The cell death occurs after a patient has been on them for a while and then the substance is withdrawn. He believes that the cancer cells may get " hooked " on the cannabioids and then die from the withdrawal. Amazing theory from a very bright guy.
I was not aware that soy is estrogenic so I will try to avoid it.
Interesting information about cancer. My understanding is that sugar is the primary energy source for cancer cells so I would think that anything reducing blood sugar should help such as metformin (but maybe it helps through a different mechanism). I have also learned from you about LDN as a possible therapy for cancer so no real surprise here. However, it is completely new to me that canabinoids can fight cancer as well.
I hope Angus Dalgleish has patented its anti-cancer cocktail so that a company can be interested to finance all the trials.
Hi Alan,
Greatly appreciate your explanation and perspective about impact of estrogen on male life span.
We have a paradoxical situation about estrogen that I would like to understand.
On one hand Paul posted many studies showing associations between estrogen levels in serum and cardiac risks, stroke risks, metabolic syndrome, inflammation.
On the other hand The ITP found a very impressive life span extension on mice with supplementation of 17 alpha estradiol. Moreover, I have found this other paper that expands on that:
"17α-Estradiol Alleviates Age-related Metabolic and Inflammatory Dysfunction in Male Mice Without Inducing Feminization"
https://academic.oup.com/biomedgerontology/article-lookup/doi/10.1093/gerona/glv309
"Fasting glucose, insulin, and glycosylated hemoglobin were also reduced by 17α-E2, and hyperinsulinemic-euglycemic clamps revealed improvements in peripheral glucose disposal and hepatic glucose production. Inflammatory mediators in visceral adipose tissue and the circulation were reduced by 17α-E2. 17α-E2 increased AMPKα and reduced mTOR complex 1 activity in visceral adipose tissue but not in liver or quadriceps muscle, which is in contrast to the generalized systemic effects of caloric restriction. These beneficial phenotypic changes occurred in the absence of feminization or cardiac dysfunction, two commonly observed deleterious effects of exogenous estrogen administration. Thus, 17α-E2 holds potential as a novel therapeutic for alleviating age-related metabolic dysfunction through tissue-specific effects."
Are we really talking about the same molecule (17 alpha-estradiol) that was associated with many risks in Paul's paper or is it a different estrogen? Can different estrogens be associated with opposite outcomes? I am really puzzled here.
This is a very interesting paper that I read a few years ago, and first put me onto the benefits of coffee drinking. It looks at protein content in blood to predict biological age. People who drunk the most coffee were around 5-6 years younger biologically based on this analysis. To put this in perspective, this was a bigger (positive) effect even that eating loads of oily fish.
'Protein profiling reveals consequences of lifestyle choices on predicted biological aging', 2015, Scientific Reports.
I think this ties in well with the paper on the benefits of caffeine that Alan posted.
Also Paul,
I think you are absolutely right that chronic inflammation is terrible and the main cause of cancer.
The paper I reference below shows that cancerous cells, even after arrest, can escape senescence in large numbers (>10%). So for those cancers resistant to apoptosis, senescence is only a temporary barrier that gives the immune system time to gather an attack. if the immune system is not functioning well, and in cases of chronic inflammation it is not, cancer is the inevitable eventual result.
'Derepression of hTERT gene expression promotes escape from oncogene-induced cellular senescence', 2016, Patel et al.
Hi Alan,
Thanks for solving the apparent paradox around 17-alpha estradiol! This was really puzzling. Very glad if I could have been of any help. Looking forward for future studies in humans.
Interesting, the hormone estrogen is known to upregulate telomerase through a transcription effect. I wonder if the 17 alpha-Estradiol version would do the same without the feminizing side effects on males.
We know that premenopausal women are protected against atherosclerosis. Higher telomerase due to estrogen could be why.
Hi Paul,
"But the thing that distinguishes the blue zone Costa Rican men is that they invariably have sex with younger women"
where can I have a prescription for that?
Hi Paul,
Big time thanks on this one.
This is one remarkable paper. Open access paper. title "Six plant extracts delay yeast chronological aging through different signaling pathways, Lutchman.
106 references.
Needs intense study, but all products safe. Also signaling pathways in yeast generally conserved through evolution and present in mammals.
Plants always like to say, "anything bacteria can do, plants can do better, we are the world's best chemists."
This could be major.
Hi Alan,
GREAT NEWS FOR YOU
2017, News Center, Stanford University,
"Caffeine may counter age-related inflammation"
Go back to diet coke WITH Caffeine, no reason to drink crappy tasting caffeine free diet coke.
And coffee lovers: everything about coffee is great including the caffeine.
This is really interesting. I think the process is ROS causes damaged nucleotide products to circulate in the blood and that this leads to a large immune response. Caffeine seems to block this last stage from happening.
Gustavo will be pleased. Fits in well with his ideas of mitochondrial mutations not being that important, but it's the bits and pieces of fragmented MtDNA that do the damage.
Hi Alan,
Thanks. Great news for me as well. Love taste of coffee and love effect of caffeine on brain. Only problem for me is that I have to negotiate dosage with my stomach to keep it happy.
They named the six plant extracts PE4, 5, 6, 8, 12, 21. Assuming they stopped testing extracts at no. 21, I wonder what are the 15 extracts they tested, but did not work. Anyone working in the academic world could probably ask the authors. So we can stop taking plant extract supplements that do not work.
I am also thinking about taking weekly rapamycin myself. However, this is a tough decision because of all the possible side effects. In particular:
- my skin might improve and my wrinkles might reduce
- my heart function might improve as much as 30% in the worst case
- I might avoid getting Alzheimer disease in my 80 or 90
- in the long term, I might even live longer and in better health
Fortunately, we have such a good health system that I am sure almost no doctor in the country would ever advise any of his patient to take weekly rapamycin
HaHa. That was good!
LOL, I can let you know where to find it Akshay without a prescription. Lots of hassle but after much work I now have several years of personal supply in my cupboard
Hi Mark
I'm at this LDN symposium where there are very legit doctors, MD's and PHD's , from all over the world giving incredible accounts of how well this drug works.
Immunemodulator
Anti-inflammatory
Cancer growth inhibitor
you should really check it out.
LDN comments
Checking out LDN in wikipedia, they didn't have anything supportive about claims.
As regards LDN symposium, I guess everybody there would like LDN or probably wouldn't get invited. My impression is the higher the quality of institution and people doing the research, turns out to be inversely proportional to chance of positive results.
My impression, LDN increases endophins so I would expect it to be "feel good" drug. As feel group drug could have "placebo-like" effects in that patients feeling good might honestly report improvement in symptoms.
At any rate, my research about LDN was just a few minutes; so will have to wait for Paul to present some high quality research from symposium and whether Paul found other quality papers disputing those finding.
I admit that I usually think most everything is crap, but as soon as I saw good data about NR, I did a 180 and purchased NR and took 500 mg today.
You need to check out THE LDN BOOK . Dr. Bihari had very well documented records of high response rates in cancer patients. Several studies on remarkable responses in crohn's, ms , and fibromyagia. No money in this drug so will never have a large well funded study. The past chief of neurology at Hershey Medical Center gave data on both clinical response and MRI changes in MS patients.
Hi Mark,
Thanks. Appreciate your offer. Are you confident that the stuff that you get is the real stuff with proper dosage?
I will first try to convince my Doctor to prescribe rapamycin because it is the easiest solution. If this does not work (as I suspect) I will try to visit Alan or Paul (since I would prefer to see a doctor before taking the stuff). Only problem is they live far and I need to find the time to travel (which is kind of tough currently). If I cannot find the time, I'll get back to you.
Thanks again
@Mark,
do you use sirolimus or everulimus?. I don't know if that is important. Molecules are almost equal.
sirolimus - it is the only affordable one (currently).
Thanks mark,
btw I tried a long time ago to get it shipped from India (no need of RX) without sucess due to strict customs in my country. Do you know any pharmacy that ships within EU without RX?.
My mail: semsons AT gmail DOT com
Thanks. Santiago
Akshay
It may be smartest to use rapamycin on say every Sunday, and LDN on Tues., Thurs ., and Sat.., only.( for cancer prevention). They will be doing different things on different days. Might be safest and best approach, but only a guess on my part. And I'm often wrong.
Hi Mark,
The ApoE4 has a very interesting disinformation side story.
About 17% population has ApoE4 allele and these people at extraordinary risk for AD.
The rest of population doesn't really need to worry about AD as only 20% risk and median age of onset age 84. So lot more things to worry about like heart disease and cancer.
But the small group with ApoE4 have @ 46% risk and age of onset 8 years sooner, around 76 median age. Having an almost 50% chance of getting AD at age 76 is reason to panic.
However, just like the captain on the Titanic, nobody ever wants to tell people the truth as don't want to cause alarm.
So if look at statements from AD associations play down risk ApoE4 and say no reason for test.
Now if all the carriers of ApoE4 knew they were carriers, they would be screaming, "we need prevention treatment".
And in this regard, known since 2010 that rapamycin prevents AD in very excellent mouse models of AD. And decreasing mTOR gene from 2 genes to 1 gene, also prevents AD in mouse models of AD. (after AD has developed rapamycin not any help). Just my opinion, but as a pathologist, the brain destruction in AD so great, I don't think even God could cure AD. AD needs prevention.
So does anybody here think they then did human trial to see if rapamycin prevented AD in people like prevented in mouse AD models, say a test on persons who are carriers of ApoE4 and at @ 50% risk.
Right, No clinical trial on humans
Off topic again, but has anyone seen this news from yesterday?
ApoE4 markedly exacerbates tau-mediated neurodegeneration in a mouse model of tauopathy, Nature (2017) doi:10.1038/nature24016
The whole picture isn't clear but it looks like APO4 carriers' microglia are reacting in a far more inflammatory fashion to tau that those with APOE2 or APOE3. I'm not sure whether this is because of the presence of amyloid beta clumps or not, but it may well be that the recent failed trials using immunotherapy to clear AB would be effective as a vaccine.
Not to say the study is uninteresting, but no person under 30 suffers from AD. What triggers the deleterious effects of these genes at a certain age? Michael Fossel proposed a very good metaphor over at his blog, that biological age is like the decreasing water level on a lake. Lower the level and rocks that were underwater now appear. APO4 would be like one of those rocks.
It is also worth noting that microglia, like other glial cells, continue dividing through our lifetimes and suffer telomere shortening. A point that M. Fossel has also made many times.
I seem to recall reading a book on telomerase by Michael Fossel MD,PHD. In it he was a big believer in TA 65 if my memory serves me. I wonder if he still is? He certainly never associated long telomeres with cancer risk.
A few facts about AD pathogenesis.
ApoE4 is devastating to microcirculation. Damage to microcirculation is major early step and can be demonstrated 20-30 years before dementia.
During active disease microglia play large role to promoting disease through inflammation.
If short telemeres were a major factor as regards microglia, short telemeres would mean less microglia etc.
AD is an age-related disease because high mTOR is driving factor. As age-related disease because full blown pathology takes 20-30 to develop,
Many ways to look at this. Astrocytes help clear beta amyloid, so yes short telomeres are involved in the decline of clearance. MTOR drives excessive prolifiteration so will drive telomeres to shorten in these cells. It will also up production of amyloid beta in the non-dividing cells. So I see telomere theory of aging fitting quite well within the general MTOR model, and there effects on AD are interdependent not independant.
Hi Mark
Glad you interested in AD, few more pathways
Rapamycin blocks increased production Anyliod beta
Rapamycin blocks steps causing hyper phosphorylation Tau,
Amyloid beta and hyperphosphorylated tau then act as misfolded protein
Misfolded proteins promote more misfolded proteins.
Then microglia respond misfolded proteins with intense inflammation.
The stage set for all this by destruction micro circulation . This step also blocked by MTOR especially in ApoE4 carriers.
Anybody studying AD before understanding role of mTOR, obsolete concepts
Truly a remarkable drug!
Astrocytes clear amyloid beta and they proliferate so excessive MTOR could lead to short telomeres and therefore worse amyloid buildup. That's in addition to the harm caused by short telomeres in microglia. So telomere theory of aging from Michael Fossel fits very well into MTOR framework on this case. MTOR could also drive greater amyloid production in non dividing cells too.
C60 update from ichors therapeutic:
This explains the current status of C60 at ichors.
As Mark said, they think that interim results on mice will be available early 2018.
http://www.longecity.org/forum/topic/96700-update-on-the-status-of-ichors-c60-research/
"Additionally -- what we all care about -- is whether or not the lifespan effects of C60oo reported by Baati are real. To this end, we have started a small lifespan study (initiated May, 2017) using freshly prepared, carefully quality controlled C60oo. Our animal model is a C57BL/6 BALBc F1 cross. Animals (n=10/group) are being treated with olive oil or C60oo in exact accordance with the Baati dosing schedule, starting at age 24 months. Although we typically prefer to run lifespan studies with n=35 or greater, we should achieve statistical significance with this group size if the lifespan effect is true. We have also begun building relevant IP around the space so that we can move forward with an FDA compliant translational pathway if positive results are observed.
I will share interim results when one of the two groups (control or treatment) reach 50% mortality. We expect this to occur sometime around January 2018."
I want to see this result replicated. But this is a little concerning: 'We have also begun building relevant IP around the space so that we can move forward with an FDA compliant translational pathway if positive results are observed.'
According to their website they already have a trade name 'BuckyProtector', a ROS Sponge.
It's C60 in olive oil for goodness sake. Say what you like about quality control, it ain't that hard to make. I'll get the equipment and make it myself before I pay FDA prices.
You make it. We'll buy it.
Also 50% mortality by Jan 2018? How old were the mice when they started?
They said mice had 24 months at beginning of treatment (~720 days). They'll reach 50% mortality relatively soon. I am not an expert but 900 days is quite old for a mouse no? Of course starting that late, they certainly don't expect huge life span improvement but just any statistically meaningful improvement would be great.
Wonder why they didn't start younger? This stuff could actually be real.
Starting with older mice allow to complete the study quickly. My guess is that, they just want to know if C60 does something real as soon as they can. If they do see any statically life span improvement in this quick study, they'll probably start another with younger mice to access the real potential. Ideally, they should have probably started both studies in parallel (with young and old mice) if their budget was not limited. This is the way I understand their motivation to start with old mice.
That makes sense, although with only 10 mice per group the life extension will have to be pretty big.
Kelsey Moody was also saying they have an idea about why there have been difficulties replicating the original results, so hopefully subsequent work will reveal that too. I expect it is something to do with the Olive oil, which isn't really a very stable delivery method. I expect they'll use something else eventually.
Hi Aldebaran
It could be done like this: a group of 20 people with cardiomyopathy that isn't too severe, let's say an ejection fraction of 35 to 45%. Half get placebo and the other half weekly rapamycin over a 3 month period.
If we show a statistically significant improvement in the rapamycin group over such a short period of time ( using P values), I think that it would draw some attention, but the conclusion would be that it needs further study and with a larger number of participants and the results would need to be repeated.
Now these are justifiable concerns, but now funding becomes a big issue and a repeat study would probably never be done.
Hi Paul,
Very much welcome your input.
I see study as partially self funded and outside funding for echocardiograms.
20 random people 65-75. No clinical heart disease sufficient to require cardiologist, Not on digoxin. Not clinical heart failure.
6 months, Echo before, echo after.
No control.
Results are statistically significant improvement ejection fraction and subjective improvement quality of life.
Does that kind of study make a difference. Is it worthwhile to add expense 2 echocardiograms.
Other problems with study: for various reasons there would be no IRB and so not able to be registered with government trials.
Note at conclusion of Kaeberline study only 24 dogs; but everybody loves pet dogs.
Hi Alan
Here's a great example of it. In 2014 I read the following study: Belcaro G " Pycnogenol and Centella Asiatica for asymptomatic atherosclerosis progression" Int Angiol 2014 33 (1) 20-26.
They took a group aged 45-60 with group( iv ) atherosclerotic plaque lesions. The control group was instructed on diet and exercise only, whereas another group followed those recommendations as well as 100mg of pine bark extract with 100mg of gotu kola extract. Two common and dirt cheap supplements.
They looked at the percentage of plaques progressing from class 4 to class 5 over a 30 month period. The control group saw a 21.3% progression over this period, the supplement group had an amazing 1%progression.
Plaque progression was an incredible 95% less in the supplement group over the control.
Do you think that that study ever saw the light of day? What percent of people with CAD are aware of this? How many doctors had cute little drug reps visit them with this news while offering free trips to the Bahamas? NONE.
PS ( I take both daily and my coronary artery calcium score remains at zero)
Paul there seems to be consumers who read up on such backing studies and make their purchases. Horphag Research the Swiss company that is behind many clinical trials of their patented product Pycnogenal crossed $500 annual sales avg 15-20% growth yoy primarily with this one single product which they sell at $2,500/kg
I'm glad to hear it Akshay, but I still fear that most don't know about it. Also, the gotukola piece is essential to stabilize the dangerous soft plaque.
My patients sure don't know about it.
@Akshay,
spot on. You're 100 right.
Pycnogenol is 'probably' useless. However, Gotu Kola is fantastic. In addition it works very well for anxiety.
Hi Paul,
Thanks very much; but hoping for more encouraging answer.
As an aside, very interesting comment about pink bark and gotu kola extract. Everybody show know that it is destabilization of soft plaque that is what kills you in acute myocardial infarction. Stents of obstructing lesion will not save you from asymptomatic plaque that suddenly destabilizes.
You dialed into the exact point I was afraid of regarding echocardiogram study. However, since everybody knows about Kaeberlein dog study, maybe if same results in human study could piggy-back onto Kaeberlein dogs.
Yeah . Dogs
That's incredible. Thanks for the tip!
The Belcaro article seems to be unavailable on the web. Fortunately it was written up at length by Life Extension magazine in the May 2017 issue.
http://www.lifeextension.com/Magazine/2017/5/Arterial-Plaque-Rupture/Page-01
Both supplements are available from Life Extension. But the French Maritime Pine extract is pricey at $64.00 for 60 capsules.
Go to vitacost.com and get regular pine bark extract 100mg ( 300) count. Works the same and my partner and I have them all sent to an independent lab for verification of authenticity. Only $ 19.99 for 300.
Never know what to make of life extension. They do unearth some gems but then they sell the product at very high prices, while always claiming better absorbtion. They do reference all of their studies though. And they contribute to research.
Paul thanks for the suggestion. I tried and got this message from Vitacost
"Certain products cannot be shipped to the destination country you have selected. Please remove the item(s) from your order to proceed with checkout. "
They will not ship to Australia ?
That's a bit stupid of Vitacost.
Bill
Let me know if you can get it through Swanson Vitamins or Amazon
Hi Paul,
I definitely understand the that if the larger study is not funded, it will be very frustrating and disappointing for the people who would have spent their time in doing the first study. This is a big concern. Thanks for clarifying.