Old men chasing young women: A good thing
It turns out that older men chasing younger women contributes to human longevity and the survival of the species, according to new findings by researchers at Stanford and the University of California-Santa Barbara.
Evolutionary theory says that individuals should die of old age when their reproductive lives are complete, generally by age 55 in humans, according to demographer Cedric Puleston, a doctoral candidate in biological sciences at Stanford. But the fatherhood of a small number of older men is enough to postpone the date with death because natural selection fights life-shortening mutations until the species is finished reproducing.
"Rod Stewart and David Letterman having babies in their 50s and 60s provide no benefit for their personal survival, but the pattern [of reproducing at a later age] has an effect on the population as a whole," Puleston said. "It's advantageous to the species if these people stick around. By increasing the survival of men you have a spillover effect on women because men pass their genes to children of both sexes."
"Why Men Matter: Mating Patterns Drive Evolution of Human Lifespan," was published Aug. 29 in the online journal Public Library of Science ONE. Shripad Tuljapurkar, the Morrison Professor of Population Studies at Stanford; Puleston; and Michael Gurven, an assistant professor of anthropology at UCSB, co-authored the study in an effort to understand why humans don't die when female reproduction ends.
Human ability to scale the so-called "wall of death"—surviving beyond the reproductive years—has been a center of scientific controversy for more than 50 years, Puleston said. "The central question is: Why should a species that stops reproducing by some age stick around afterward?" he said. "Evolutionary theory predicts that, over time, harmful mutations that decrease survival will arise in the population and will remain invisible to natural selection after reproduction ends." However, in hunter-gatherer societies, which likely represent early human demographic conditions and mating patterns, one-third of people live beyond 55 years, past the reproductive lifespan for women. Furthermore, life expectancy in today's industrialized countries is 75 to 85 years, with mortality increasing gradually, not abruptly, following female menopause.
Grandmother hypothesis
In 1966, William Hamilton, a British evolutionary biologist, worked out the mathematics describing the "wall of death." Since then, the most popular explanation for why humans don't die by age 55 has been termed the "grandmother hypothesis," which suggests that women enhance the survival of their children and grandchildren by living long enough to care for them and "increasing the success of their genes," Puleston said. However, Hamilton's work has been difficult to express as a mathematical and genetic argument explaining why people live into old age.
Unlike previous research on human reproduction, this study—for the first time—includes data on males, a tweak that allowed the researchers to begin answering the "wall of death" question by matching it to human mortality patterns. According to Puleston, earlier studies looked only at women, because scientists can reproduce good datasets for humans entirely based on information related to female fertility and survival rates.
"Men's fertility is contingent on women's fertility—you have to figure out how they match up. We care about reproduction because that is a currency by which force of selection is counted. If we have not accounted for the entire pattern of reproduction, we may be missing something that's important to evolution."
Men and longevity
In the paper, the researchers analyzed "a general two-sex model to show that selection favors survival for as long as men reproduce." The scientists presented a "range of data showing that males much older than 50 years have substantial realized fertility through matings with younger females, a pattern that was likely typical among early humans." As a result, Puleston said, older male fertility helps to select against damaging cell mutations in humans who have passed the age of female menopause, consequently eliminating the "wall of death."
"Our analysis shows that old-age male fertility allows evolution to breach Hamilton's wall of death and predicts a gradual rise in mortality after the age of female menopause without relying on 'grandmother' effects or economic optimality," the researchers say in the paper.
The scientists compiled longevity and fertility data from two hunter-gatherer groups, the Dobe !Kung of the Kalahari and the Ache of Paraguay, one of the most isolated populations in the world. They also looked at the forager-farmer Yanomamo of Brazil and Venezuela, and the Tsimane, an indigenous group in Bolivia. "They're living a lifestyle that our ancestors lived and their fertility patterns are probably most consistent with our ancestors," Puleston said about the four groups. The study also looked at several farming villages in Gambia and, for comparison, a group of modern Canadians.
In the less developed, traditional societies, males were as much as 5-to-15 years older than their female partners. In the United States and Europe, the age spread was about two years. "It's a universal pattern that in typical marriages men are older than women," Puleston said. "The age gaps vary by culture, but in every group we looked at men start [being reproductive] later. At the end of reproduction, male fertility rates taper off gradually, as opposed to the fairly sharp decline in female fertility by menopause." Despite small differences based on marriage traditions, all women and most men in the six groups stopped having children by their 50s, the researchers found. But some men, particularly high-status males, continued to reproduce into their 70s. The paper noted that the age gap is most pronounced in societies that favor polygyny, where a man takes several wives, and in gerontocracies, where older men monopolize access to reproductive women. The authors also cite genetic and anthropological evidence that early humans were probably polygynous as well.
Older male fertility also exists in societies supporting serial monogamy, because men are more likely to remarry than women. "For these reasons, we argue that realized male fertility was substantial at ages well past female menopause for much of human history and the result is reflected in the mortality patterns of modern populations," the authors say. "We conclude that deleterious mutations acting after the age of female menopause are selected against … solely as a result of the matings between older males and younger females."
According to Puleston, the "grandmother hypothesis" may be true, but the real pattern of male fertility extends beyond this explanation. "The key question is: Does the population have a greater growth rate if men are reproducing at a later age? The answer is 'yes.' The age of last reproduction gets pushed into the 60s and 70s if you add men to the analysis. Hamilton's approach was right, but in a species where males and females have different reproductive patterns, you need a two-sex model. You can't correctly estimate the force of selection if you leave men out of the picture. As a man myself, it's gratifying to know that men do matter."
Grants from the U.S. National Institute on Aging supported this study.
Evolutionary theory says that individuals should die of old age when their reproductive lives are complete, generally by age 55 in humans, according to demographer Cedric Puleston, a doctoral candidate in biological sciences at Stanford. But the fatherhood of a small number of older men is enough to postpone the date with death because natural selection fights life-shortening mutations until the species is finished reproducing.
"Rod Stewart and David Letterman having babies in their 50s and 60s provide no benefit for their personal survival, but the pattern [of reproducing at a later age] has an effect on the population as a whole," Puleston said. "It's advantageous to the species if these people stick around. By increasing the survival of men you have a spillover effect on women because men pass their genes to children of both sexes."
"Why Men Matter: Mating Patterns Drive Evolution of Human Lifespan," was published Aug. 29 in the online journal Public Library of Science ONE. Shripad Tuljapurkar, the Morrison Professor of Population Studies at Stanford; Puleston; and Michael Gurven, an assistant professor of anthropology at UCSB, co-authored the study in an effort to understand why humans don't die when female reproduction ends.
Human ability to scale the so-called "wall of death"—surviving beyond the reproductive years—has been a center of scientific controversy for more than 50 years, Puleston said. "The central question is: Why should a species that stops reproducing by some age stick around afterward?" he said. "Evolutionary theory predicts that, over time, harmful mutations that decrease survival will arise in the population and will remain invisible to natural selection after reproduction ends." However, in hunter-gatherer societies, which likely represent early human demographic conditions and mating patterns, one-third of people live beyond 55 years, past the reproductive lifespan for women. Furthermore, life expectancy in today's industrialized countries is 75 to 85 years, with mortality increasing gradually, not abruptly, following female menopause.
Grandmother hypothesis
In 1966, William Hamilton, a British evolutionary biologist, worked out the mathematics describing the "wall of death." Since then, the most popular explanation for why humans don't die by age 55 has been termed the "grandmother hypothesis," which suggests that women enhance the survival of their children and grandchildren by living long enough to care for them and "increasing the success of their genes," Puleston said. However, Hamilton's work has been difficult to express as a mathematical and genetic argument explaining why people live into old age.
Unlike previous research on human reproduction, this study—for the first time—includes data on males, a tweak that allowed the researchers to begin answering the "wall of death" question by matching it to human mortality patterns. According to Puleston, earlier studies looked only at women, because scientists can reproduce good datasets for humans entirely based on information related to female fertility and survival rates.
"Men's fertility is contingent on women's fertility—you have to figure out how they match up. We care about reproduction because that is a currency by which force of selection is counted. If we have not accounted for the entire pattern of reproduction, we may be missing something that's important to evolution."
Men and longevity
In the paper, the researchers analyzed "a general two-sex model to show that selection favors survival for as long as men reproduce." The scientists presented a "range of data showing that males much older than 50 years have substantial realized fertility through matings with younger females, a pattern that was likely typical among early humans." As a result, Puleston said, older male fertility helps to select against damaging cell mutations in humans who have passed the age of female menopause, consequently eliminating the "wall of death."
"Our analysis shows that old-age male fertility allows evolution to breach Hamilton's wall of death and predicts a gradual rise in mortality after the age of female menopause without relying on 'grandmother' effects or economic optimality," the researchers say in the paper.
The scientists compiled longevity and fertility data from two hunter-gatherer groups, the Dobe !Kung of the Kalahari and the Ache of Paraguay, one of the most isolated populations in the world. They also looked at the forager-farmer Yanomamo of Brazil and Venezuela, and the Tsimane, an indigenous group in Bolivia. "They're living a lifestyle that our ancestors lived and their fertility patterns are probably most consistent with our ancestors," Puleston said about the four groups. The study also looked at several farming villages in Gambia and, for comparison, a group of modern Canadians.
In the less developed, traditional societies, males were as much as 5-to-15 years older than their female partners. In the United States and Europe, the age spread was about two years. "It's a universal pattern that in typical marriages men are older than women," Puleston said. "The age gaps vary by culture, but in every group we looked at men start [being reproductive] later. At the end of reproduction, male fertility rates taper off gradually, as opposed to the fairly sharp decline in female fertility by menopause." Despite small differences based on marriage traditions, all women and most men in the six groups stopped having children by their 50s, the researchers found. But some men, particularly high-status males, continued to reproduce into their 70s. The paper noted that the age gap is most pronounced in societies that favor polygyny, where a man takes several wives, and in gerontocracies, where older men monopolize access to reproductive women. The authors also cite genetic and anthropological evidence that early humans were probably polygynous as well.
Older male fertility also exists in societies supporting serial monogamy, because men are more likely to remarry than women. "For these reasons, we argue that realized male fertility was substantial at ages well past female menopause for much of human history and the result is reflected in the mortality patterns of modern populations," the authors say. "We conclude that deleterious mutations acting after the age of female menopause are selected against … solely as a result of the matings between older males and younger females."
According to Puleston, the "grandmother hypothesis" may be true, but the real pattern of male fertility extends beyond this explanation. "The key question is: Does the population have a greater growth rate if men are reproducing at a later age? The answer is 'yes.' The age of last reproduction gets pushed into the 60s and 70s if you add men to the analysis. Hamilton's approach was right, but in a species where males and females have different reproductive patterns, you need a two-sex model. You can't correctly estimate the force of selection if you leave men out of the picture. As a man myself, it's gratifying to know that men do matter."
Grants from the U.S. National Institute on Aging supported this study.
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September 13, 2007
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Comments
cougars
July 3, 2009 by Anonymous, 8 hours 16 min ago
Comment id: 37689
when i was a young man in my 20s, i was sought out for sex by many women 10-20 years my senior. many years later, i don't think any less of them for it.
no matter what choices you make in life, there will always be those who disapprove. you are free to make your own choices, and as an adult, you are responsible for the consequences. what two adults consent to is, after all, no one else's business.
if other people are distressed by your choices, that's their own fault, not yours.
young women
July 2, 2009 by Anonymous, 1 day 4 hours ago
Comment id: 37674
..."They seem to be happy, cheerful and optimistic, as opposed to middle age women."
Oh Stanley... It's a good thing that Mrs. Roper knows how much you really love her.
Men
July 2, 2009 by Anonymous, 1 day 19 hours ago
Comment id: 37656
I just want to reply to my own statement because my boyfriend is almost 48 years old, very virile, and we have a great relationship no matter what. So, it doesn't always depend on a sexual matter or anything else to do with physicalness..... I am totally in love with him and he is everything that any book or psychiatrist would ever pronounce for me to try out.... He is the real deal, and I am just a spoiled American girl..... I am lucky to have the Aussie in my life......... I love him forever!
Always,
Karen Gambino
Men wonder why women are 'taking over'
June 29, 2009 by Anonymous, 4 days 1 hour ago
Comment id: 37631
Men wonder why women are 'taking over' . Women are much more likely than men to be the ones single handedly looking and raising families - they have to be self sufficient as men leave them at 26!! While women are the ones single handedly looking after families now in contrast to past times, what are men doing? Cruising for 20 year olds in penis cars!!
I think women should be the high earners if men use money to show off, women use it to raise the nation economically.
(My apologies to the genuine men who aren't sexist and love and support wives to the end. Unfortunately your fellow males let the team down and women are working harder than ever to be financially independent because of a lack of long term interest).
Lucassss
June 29, 2009 by Anonymous, 4 days 8 hours ago
Comment id: 37618
My name is lucas, I have started my edveture with bookmakers 2 years ago.Since this time I have won around 100 000 usd. Would You like do same??
Think about Sports betting and change Your life. Nice post
Regards
Violence
June 28, 2009 by Anonymous, 5 days 3 hours ago
Comment id: 37599
See that is exactly why I can do without a living partner. Submissive is good but only in the bedroom. Outside of that it's MY space and I will get angry if you try to talk to me or tell me what the hell I should be doing.
Wash the dishes? I will do my own then smash the plate over your head if you ask me to do yours.
Old men - if he's hot fair play, but definitely no older than 45.. sperm becomes defunct, and only fertilises defunct eggs from that point.
violence
June 28, 2009 by Anonymous, 5 days 4 hours ago
Comment id: 37598
Come now...whats with this mixing of violence and sex? That is too freaky for older men. If you really want to get with an older man, you must make some changes. Loose the hate...become submissive....I'll teach you from there...
Real life
June 27, 2009 by Anonymous, 6 days 1 hour ago
Comment id: 37589
I know you're just hiding behind your screens gentlemen, but if one of you told me in REAL life you would sustain me while I cooked and cleaned I would hack you there and then with a big knife. Too bad I'm a bit of a loner and love my space (and intelligence, and ability to get by alone).
I have sex with different people, my own large student flat to myself, my friends (yes my is fantastic!).
But I'm angry, do things for MYSELF only, and have way too much dignity to live with a sexist man (most men are like those on this thread and insecure morons with no direction, if they're not bossing a woman around). No loss gentlemen, sod your paternal laughable natures.
Maybe you should fight with the younger guys for the younger chics? Don't forget to use weapons symbollic of penises though, and bloody your frail bodies about on the pavements, let's make it exciting!
young women
June 27, 2009 by Anonymous, 6 days 9 hours ago
Comment id: 37584
I am a 53 YO male, and I enjoy sex with younger women. They seem to be happy, cheerful and optimistic, as opposed to middle age women. I just had sex with a 25 yo, and she was shocked and awed by the tricks this middle aged man taught her.
Well, I certainly hope that
June 25, 2009 by Anonymous, 1 week 1 day ago
Comment id: 37537
Well, I certainly hope that there's an upsurge in births within the next decade. I want there to be enough workers in 25-30 years to keep Social Security going so that I will be able to retire!!!
Come on people, get moving!!!
because they are not bitter
June 23, 2009 by Anonymous, 1 week 3 days ago
Comment id: 37511
because they are not bitter old harpies.
I know a great dating website for cougars
June 20, 2009 by Anonymous, 1 week 5 days ago
Comment id: 37435
W e a l t h y C o u g a r D a t i n g . c o m
Cougars and the men who love to date them. I find a nice hot young guy on this site. I recommend..A+++++++
I hide my assets in panama
June 20, 2009 by Anonymous, 1 week 6 days ago
Comment id: 37423
I hide my assets in panama so she has no clue what we have. i pull cash from my personal account each month and send money orders. much better than bahamas or swiss banks because with those they can't get the money but they can find out about it and count it against you or hold you in contempt and stick u in jail. there is no need for a prenup if you're smart about it. the lawyers will cost a bundle and just screw everything up. and with a prenup if you dont disclose all assets she can get the whole thing chucked. they wont miss 1000 amonth. if they ask then maybe i was going to strip clubs at lunch. :)
she should have an escape account though in her name. if she really is after the money she take her cash and go. i dont think the wife should know you have a lot of money until you retire. don't know why, but todays woman has a harder time being a saver like me. if my wife wants to travel in her retirement then maybe she wont mind so much when all this money starts popping up.
ps
June 19, 2009 by Anonymous, 2 weeks 3 hours ago
Comment id: 37413
There was definitely an economic boom. Wasn't that the decade of the Babyboomer Yuppies? I just meant that for a lot of people that belong to Generation X, growing up in single parent homes, poor due to divorce and, a lot of times, absentee fathers, that time resembled a depression of sorts simply because of how expensive everything was and the materializm of the 80's.
And nowadays, staying at home and taking care of your family should be a right, but it isn't in a lot of cases simply because of how society is set up now. Corporations benefit from cheap labor.
im 25 and my husband is 46 years old
June 18, 2009 by Anonymous, 2 weeks 23 hours ago
Comment id: 37390
i would agree that they are loving and mature than other young guys...if u just go to the young hottie guys it will only breaks ur heart coz they always makes u jealous... and for me its fate to have a husband older than you. thats all
prettykristine
ps
June 18, 2009 by Anonymous, 2 weeks 1 day ago
Comment id: 37387
a lot of economics are local. Some places (like Detroit) can have hard times even during a national expansion. here's the national picture though-
Inflation dropped dramatically from 13.5% annually in 1980 to just 3% annually in 1983
Real GDP contracted in 1980 and 1982, but then we had good growth from there.
The unemployment rate peaked at 10.8% by 1982, but was 5.4% by 1989
p.s.
June 18, 2009 by Anonymous, 2 weeks 1 day ago
Comment id: 37384
i guess my post was hard to follow - sorry, I kept mixing the decades up. That's because of how I think, I guess.
I don't remember the 70's being hard at all. Maybe that's because there was more of a sense of community. I always remember those wonderful summers when everyone would be outside and on their porches until like 10:00 at night. But there were a lot of divorces among the parents of our generation, starting in the early 70's, and that did cause a lot of women to have to eventually go into the work force.
I do remember the feminist movement of the 70's very vaugely. I remember being 4 or 5 and seeing certain older women on t.v., or among some of the mothers at my school, who were well-off. They were different, though. They really didn't represent any ot the women that I was around. They represented a minority.
But it seemed like a lot of things changed in the 80's. I remember my mom having to go to work after my parent's divorced and I saw it with so many others, and we were lucky compared to anyone growing up on welfare. I mean, I was poor and getting clothes for back to school was really rough because the fad , when I was 11 or 12 , were those $30 and $40 designer jeans like Sasson and Jordache, along with leather Nikes.
I see your point, I got
June 18, 2009 by Anonymous, 2 weeks 1 day ago
Comment id: 37376
I see your point, I got carried away there...I feel that it started in the early to mid 70's, with divorce rates soaring, but it seemed to get worse in the 80's when the children of those divorces became teenagers.
Sorry, I guess I said few
June 17, 2009 by Anonymous, 2 weeks 1 day ago
Comment id: 37355
Sorry, I guess I said few decades. that not what I meant to say.
by "several decades", I did
June 17, 2009 by Anonymous, 2 weeks 1 day ago
Comment id: 37354
by "several decades", I did mean starting in the late 60s, early 70s. the peak was in 81. no-fault divorce was just one of the culprits.
So you blame those hard times on Reaganomics? Interesting. I would have thought Carter's gas lines and double digit inflation would have had a more prominent place in your memory.
correction
June 17, 2009 by Anonymous, 2 weeks 2 days ago
Comment id: 37347
I left out a word in a sentence:
"Most women who had to children on their own..." Should read:
"Most women who had to RAISE children on their own..."
married families used to be
June 17, 2009 by Anonymous, 2 weeks 2 days ago
Comment id: 37345
Actually, the exodus of women into the work force started in the early 70's. It was mostly young, single women and women who had children to support but no husbands. During that era the divorce rate was over 60%. A lot of these men had drug alcohol problems due to the Vienam era. I am sure that you knew kids when you were growing up who didn't have fathers. You said in your one post that your family was poor and you're 42? I'm sure you remember Reganomics? Well, divorced (and abandoned) women had no choice but to work because of how terrible Welfare was (is). The choice was either go on Welfare so that you could stay at home and care for your children, but not be able to feed them well on the amount of foodstamps you'd get, or be able to afford to clothe them in very much besides 2nd hand clothes, and even then, it would be very, very minimal... Most women who had to children on their own had no choice but to work...and I'm sorry to say, many times, there was no support from the fathers. Honestly, I knew many kids when I was growing up who never got so much as a birthday card or any help with back to school clothes from their fathers after their parents divorced.
I think that it was the media mainly drumming it into young women's heads to go to school and be self-sufficent, as well as a lot of older , Babyboomer women who had direct experience with some very irresponsible males. Those older Babyboomer women were in the vast majority. You see, the women today who are in their late 30's to mid 40's (Gen X) were VICTIMS of what went on in the early 70's during their childhoods. I realize now that males growing up during that time were also victims because they must have experienced a lot of negativity from older women and women in general due to the rancor that had been created by the glut of absent fathers. That's were I think that whole "all men are no good" thing started. Our generation paid for it and is still paying for it. I just didn't realize how much until recently.
married families used to be
June 17, 2009 by Anonymous, 2 weeks 2 days ago
Comment id: 37333
married families used to be able to live on one paycheck.
I wonder what changed that.
I should be more direct... the laws of economics apply to labor (supply, demand, price). When supply increases with a lagging increase in demand, then the price will fall. (or stagnate when it should be rising with inflation) The entrance of some career women into the workforce has increased the supply of workers. This has had the effect of lowering or stagnating wages (price for labor) over the last few decades. (I think it has also helped with a long term growth trend over the last few decades) Anyway, families with one wage earner get poorer because the price of goods have inflated, while their wages have not. The economic value of a housewife to the family can offset this problem, but only to a certain point. When families reach that point, a housewife is forced into wage earning. (and that increases the supply and the cycle continues)What's worse is that her society is telling her that if she is "only a housewife", she is somehow less of a woman.
My posts are not intending to stir up hatred for women. I love women but I hate what the feminist movement is doing to our culture and families. I see too many women that are conflicted about their role in the modern world. I see too many women who buy into the feminist dogma, when it does not match their true goals in life. Current feminist thinking actually says that "being feminine" is a male created stereotype, used to keep women in their place. As long as you believe this, you will not value the traditional housewife. Obviously, if you don't value the work, you will find another career that you do value. Mainstream society does not value housewives and its pity and contempt for the housewife is painfully obvious. Here's the reality that you are rejecting: a housewife often loves her job because she loves her family. Cooking, cleaning, and nurturing your family is an act of love. It is not exalted as it should be.
"Think about it this way,
June 16, 2009 by Anonymous, 2 weeks 3 days ago
Comment id: 37315
married families used to be able to live on one paycheck.
I wonder what changed that.
"Think about it this way,
June 16, 2009 by Anonymous, 2 weeks 3 days ago
Comment id: 37314
that was meant to be a hypothetical. I have no idea who you are.
"Think about it this way,
June 16, 2009 by Anonymous, 2 weeks 3 days ago
Comment id: 37304
"Think about it this way, you're a career woman."
No, I am NOT a "career woman". I work in a boring, dead end job because I have to. Everyone that I know, married or single works. I really don't know any stay at home moms.
I agree with what you and some of the other posters are saying about dating. I got to the point where I was so tired of being disappointed and I didn't want to go and hang out in a bar that I started just focusing on my own inner core.
I really don't like the concept of dating. I feel it's much more fun to get a group of people together for a picnic or a trip to an amusement park.
Oh, and by the way, I totally agree that there's way, way more to life than just an animalistic focus on sex and procreation. I just wish I could find more people who think like this in real life.
p.s. That doesn't mean I don't think that sex is nice, it's just that I think it should actually mean something.
Shaming Posts
June 16, 2009 by Anonymous, 2 weeks 3 days ago
Comment id: 37300
I don't tell the truth anymore. Now I say I live with my parents or that I'm gay. You will not believe anything else, so I might as well not argue about it.
widower- do not tell women you are a widower. If you do, you are toast. You are like catnip and I'm not sure why.... my current working theory has to do with leaving the toilet seat down, but I haven't got federal funding yet for researching this.
Shaming Posts
June 16, 2009 by Anonymous, 2 weeks 3 days ago
Comment id: 37299
Think about it this way. You are a career woman. Your mother wants grandkids- she's not subtle about it either. She constantly shames you and she's on your back constantly about boyfriends, what you are wearing, your prospects, etc. Of course, she's really the only one. Your girlfriends and the world around you fully support you. The world around you wants you to be an independent, successful career woman who has it all. So you can ignore your mother because she's just old fashioned and she doesn't understand the world as it is today. Remember how it feels though- it sucks. She says some stupid shit sometimes and its hurtful. Now- you're a man. You have the same mother, but oddly enough, the rest of the world agrees with her. Hell- even that career woman thinks you are immature and selfish. The mainstream (almost all movies, tv, and print), portray you as the lowest of dumb creatures led around by your penis. Personally- I've found happiness by minding my own business and trying my best to ignore any women who are trying to attract me or convince me to date. but it can't be helped. Invariably, a seemingly professional or friendly conversation will always turn into- so why are you not dating? What I don't understand is why women think that what I'm doing is mean or bad. I am focused on me- my mind, body, and soul. If a woman says that, she is empowered. If a guy says that- he's selfish.
Shaming Posts
June 15, 2009 by Anonymous, 2 weeks 4 days ago
Comment id: 37291
This is a comment on that long list about shaming posts.
It's pretty much just turning around a lot of the statements that are the current fad of abuse against women:
*It's your fault that we men are so angry - you emasculated us when you started standing up for womens rights, like equal pay, (so that women could support the children that a lot of men were abandoning), back in the 70's and 80's...
*You women wanted to work (make that had no choice, unless you have a trust fund or a husband with a very good job), and yet you still expect men to be "gentlemen" like they were in the 1950's. (And not blazing with the hatred of a thousand suns.)
*You're taking that corner office job away from a qualified male with a family to support (never mind that you may be a single or widowed parent yourself... and therefore also really need the money.)
*You women are so materialist. You don't want to work. You want to find a sucker to support you so that you can sit on your fat ass all day watching QVC and ordering face cream and loading your 450 pound ass, along with your two kids, in and out of an SUV
*Once the children come, the husband is nothing but a meal ticket
*You're neglecting your duty to your husband, children and country by going back to work (ah, it's those $400 lamps) and forcing them to eat frozen TV Dinners because there's no one there to care for them
*After children the sex stops - that's why I'll be with my girlfriend tonight
*Why are you women shirking your god-given duty to marry and bear children?
*You women don't have it nearly as bad as us men, we're all facing reverse discrimination and getting ass-raped in court because we now have to pay child support. (We can't just skip out on our responsibilities the way we used to before Clinton passed that Dead Beat Dad law.)
*You women are so insecure about your appearance
*I bet you're fat and ugly
*You women have a lot of nerve expecting a man to pay for your dinner, especially if he's not going to get any sex out of it...
*You women need to grow up
*You woman are only good as concubines anyway
*You woman are now being punished with aloneness, with only your dogs and vibrators for companionship because you all wanted to go out and work at really crapping, low-paying jobs and now you don't deserve to associate with any of us males!
*No man will marry you with that attitude! That's why I always say, don't marry an American woman! Just sport fuck them and then, when you want to settle down, marry a nice woman from Eastern Europe or Asia who's 25 years younger than you and desperate to come to America...
Oh yeah, and here is my favorite:
*You're just upset because I'm not interested in you...
Woman Haters
June 15, 2009 by Anonymous, 2 weeks 4 days ago
Comment id: 37289
"Men are voting with their feet."
That's cool because women don't want to deal with this kind of anger. It's one thing if you are grieving like that widower who is raising his daughters, but there's really no excuse for this level of anger on the part of so many males against women who are also victims of the system and what has been going on in this country for the past 30 years here...What's wrong, are you all afraid to stand up tall and fight against the corporate state - or, are you just another schill trying to turn men and women against each other on a public forum?
Woman Haters
June 15, 2009 by Anonymous, 2 weeks 4 days ago
Comment id: 37286
men are voting with their feet.
Woman Haters
June 15, 2009 by Anonymous, 2 weeks 4 days ago
Comment id: 37279
In the interest of saving the reader's time and eyesight, I'd like to consolidate all the shaming posts that we'll be getting. if your comment is on this list, please save your energy.
•"You're bitter!"
•"You need to get over your anger at women."
•"You are so negative!"
•"You need to get over your fear."
•"Step up and take a chance like a man!"
•"You're afraid of a strong woman!"
•"Stop whining!"
•"Get over it!"
•"Suck it up like a man!"
•"You guys don't have it as nearly as bad as us women!"
•"You're just afraid of losing your male privileges."
•"Your fragile male ego ..."
•"Wow! You guys need to get a grip!"
•"Grow up!"
•"You are so immature!"
•"Do you live with your mother?"
•"I'm not interested in boys. I'm interested in real men."
•"Men are shirking their God-given responsibility to marry and bear children."
•"You guys are scary."
•"You make me feel afraid."
•"You are just bitter because you can't get laid."
•"You're one of those right-wing wackos."
•"You're an extremist"
•"You sound like the KKK."
•"... more anti-feminist zaniness"
•"Are you gay?"
•"I need a real man, not a sissy."
•"You're such a wimp."
•"Stop generalizing!"
•"That's a sexist stereotype!"
•"You misogynist creep!"
•"Why do you hate women?"
•"Do you love your mother?"
•"You are insensitive to the plight of women."
•"You are mean-spirited."
•"You view women as doormats."
•"You want to roll back the rights of women!!"
•"You are going to make me cry."
•"You're unstable."
•"You have issues."
•"You need therapy."
•"Weirdo!"
•"You are so materialistic."
•"You are so greedy."
•"If you didn't go after bimbos, then ..."
•"How can you be so shallow and turn down a single mother?"
•"I bet you are fat and ugly."
•"You can't get laid!"
•"Creep!"
•"Loser!"
•"Have you thought about the problem being you?"
•"No woman will marry you with that attitude."
•"Creeps like you will never get laid!"
Woman Haters
June 15, 2009 by Anonymous, 2 weeks 4 days ago
Comment id: 37278
1. a man's happiness and worth is not based on his romantic conquests (including marriage)..
2. I loved my wife and she was 110% real woman. Someone you would shame or pity- to affirm your world view.
3. I am disinterested in you and your type. But I don't hate anyone.
4 diinterest seems to anger women or make them want to use me in the sack. Getting laid is not the problem.
Women Haters
June 14, 2009 by Anonymous, 2 weeks 5 days ago
Comment id: 37263
Maybe these guys just need to get laid once in a while???
Requiem for the modern woman,
June 12, 2009 by Anonymous, 3 weeks 1 hour ago
Comment id: 37233
Requiem for the modern woman, by PJ
For you, who are old, and have seen days when men were men and women were women, I grieve for all you have lost. And for those among you that have joined with where Feminist's have led you, I grieve that your life is a shadow of what it could have been.
For you young women, coming up and inheriting the stale, left-overs of the once great causes of feminism, I grieve for you that your life has no meaning but to find some way to feel good enough about yourself. I grieve that the most comforting males in your life are a dog named "Butch" and a cat which has been neutered. I grieve that you have come to appreciate and care for all animals more than you do for any man. And I grieve that your closest intimate companion has become that which uses sized "C" batteries for sales of these electronic companions have never been higher in recorded history.
Yes, you could have had it all, but now you barely hold it together relying on your closest allies of Prozac, Paxil, and shallow sex.
I grieve for those who are "successful" in business, for I know many of you. I have seen how empty the victory is of the corner office as you sacrifice all that is good about family to take that spot from a suitable male candidate; all under the guise that you need to work to help your husband afford the house, when it is you and only you that must have the impressive home, the $400 lamps and the BMW.
And even though you have, and will make many an unsuspecting man a miserable soul, still, I grieve for you. For in the end, these lies that you have bought into handed down by your mothers, sister and girlfriends will cost you any shred of happiness that you could have had.And to those women, whom none among you had any anti-men agenda, who look around bewildered of why things are the way they are, for you, perhaps, I grieve the most.
For the sins of those who came before you have taken away all that you could have had, and have changed the face of those who could have loved you along with it. You find emnity, and understand not why, and to this, I can only speak of tragedy.
And finally, I grieve for all women. You had the best of worlds. All rewards of being a mother, and all of the protections that a man could offer you, overflowing with chivalry as each man looked to his families welfare. You all, collectively either authored, or bought into the lie, and doing so, you, not men, have been responsible for bringing all of society down. For in time and memoriam, women have been the keepers of the moral high-ground. They have been the authors of gentleness and affection. But all that lay in ruins now, traded away for a cheap substitute of emptiness and confusion.
But today's battle cries of feminists now dead fall deafly upon brittle autumn leaves of your lives. Little comfort does come forth from knowing that the once proud cries that women will no longer be sex objects, has lead to all of you becoming, exactly that, and nothing more. For today's woman cultivates nothing else. Not kindness, not affection. Not self-sacrifice, nor tenderness. Not artfulness and dedication in cooking or cleaning, nor anything that used to be associated with the wonderful things that women could bring to the table.
It is you, and not men at all, that have turned yourselves into pure sex objects by offering nothing else. And for this, I am truly sorry for you. Even so sorry as to feel pity for the most despicable among you, who for oppportunity and revenge, rape a man of dignity through laws, manipulation, or denial. For your lot shall be that of the king that took everything, and then laid down to die because he realized he had in fact gained, nothing. For raping those who would be your protectors and your knights will never bring you satisfaction, and will instead bring you an even greater measure of self-hatred than you already have.
For this, and all things that you are not, and never will be, I grieve. For men will go on. We will rebuild our lives, and we will take back what the worst of you has taken from us.
But your chances to be more than you are will never come again. The Pandora's box of all that is hateful about you has been opened, and those demons can never be put back in the box. And I can think of nothing more regretful, nor heart-wrenching than this greatest of losses.
And so, today, as you go forth on your way, complain not that the man in front of you did not hold the door, lay down his jacket, nor put you in the lifeboat. This is the world that you and those women who came before you asked for, and it is their legacy that you are living now. Hate not men for this, for men were never the foes that your ancestors made them out to be. But all this knowledge is now lost, replaced by the sign swinging over the building in the ghost town of where love, joy and hope once lived. PJ
From: StormWatcher
(reposted)
shoulder pads
June 12, 2009 by Anonymous, 3 weeks 9 hours ago
Comment id: 37229
another thought-
equality does not mean being the same- it means equal opportunity. But it seems to me that the feminist movement has overshot. if I were a woman who envied the male position in society, and I wanted to take that position by emulating men and by being what they are, then what should I do? What are the male traits that make them men? That depends on who you ask. Feminist women today are steeped in a culture that reinforces negative stereotypes about men. We just "know" that they have a natural tendency to be irresponsible cheaters, drunkards, oppressive wife beaters, etc. Responsible family men are the exception and only exist because they have been properly trained by a strong woman - housebroken, so to speak. This is apparent when you take a critical look at the "alpha" females emerging in our society. They only emulate those traits of men with which they are familiar. The no-strings sexual adventures, binge drinking, and aggressive, often violent behavior - oh, and the Cougar. Seriously now, if you want to emulate a man, why would you not emulate the good traits of men? Why would you not include honor, self sacrifice, determination, responsibility, and courage in your list of manly traits? These traits are there- but they are downplayed in the feminist movement and therefore not part of what modern women think it is to be a man.
Of course, you could also try to be a good woman. why would that not be a valid goal?
why
June 12, 2009 by Anonymous, 3 weeks 10 hours ago
Comment id: 37228
Why do older men date young women- because older men have given up on women their age. They think that by robbing the cradle, they can get a good one, and keep them that way. Unfortunately, the sisters will talk. You can't possible keep a real woman in her pure form. She will have friends and she will interact with the world. Your only option is to move to a place where her friends will not convince her that she is justified in whatever she does. They give her resources on how to divorce in the most profitable way- its all over the Internet. There are even "how to cheat" sites. Turn off your TV, turn off the internet, and move to the countryside. You will be like N Korea. but at least you will relate to each other without a corrupting influence.
anti-feminism makes you sexy
June 11, 2009 by Anonymous, 3 weeks 23 hours ago
Comment id: 37215
anti-feminism is not new and you are not alone:
http://mgtow.net/ipbforum/lofiversion/index.php/t12928.html
but I don't think u should stop dating. Your grenade analogy is funny, but a little off the mark. Just screen your dates and don't date the brats. Try grade-school teachers. or maybe look at their career choice. If they want to "have it all" they will have a career job (and a career degree). If their goal really is to be a wife and mother, then maybe they chose something more useful to a family. and stay out of the bars- those girls are not what you need.
I used to be in the same
June 11, 2009 by Anonymous, 3 weeks 1 day ago
Comment id: 37213
I used to be in the same situation (he was 24 years older than me). He made me so happy it reminded me of when i was a kid and everything was new and exiting. I left him and i regret it every day.
It's been 2 years now and not a day goes by where i don't think about him and the fabulous year we spent together. He writes me he does too even though he moved in with someone.
I can never decide what to do... And i know once he ll have kids with her it ll be over.
I envy your courage.
anti-feminism makes you sexy
June 11, 2009 by Anonymous, 3 weeks 1 day ago
Comment id: 37205
"Maybe you should move to a smaller town where women are women and men are men - Its bliss."
I agree and that's my plan- get the girls grown and gone, and then retire early to a small town. After dating a bit, I came to a realization that I was losing my manhood- my soul. If I date urban women while waiting to find a traditional woman, I will not be fit for a traditional woman. So- I've disengaged to protect my girls and to protect myself. I just post on occasion to see if we can help some realize what is going on. I'm not the only man who is bugging out.
no doubt they are surely good
June 11, 2009 by Anonymous, 3 weeks 1 day ago
Comment id: 37200
no doubt they are surely good in bed, it's my personal experience ;)
anti-feminism makes you sexy
June 10, 2009 by Anonymous, 3 weeks 2 days ago
Comment id: 37190
I live in a small part of the North West of England and the 'SEX IN THE CITY'' lifestyle is something that happens on TV only. Maybe you should move to a smaller town where women are women and men are men - Its bliss.
anti-feminism makes you sexy
June 10, 2009 by Anonymous, 3 weeks 2 days ago
Comment id: 37187
You sound like a nice person and I'm not picking on you specifically. first, thank you for the maturity comment- and no you don't sound immature; however I do hear some predictable comments that I have heard several times before. here are my thoughts on your post-
"not all women are like that"
granted- I submit that not all grenades will blow up if I pull the pin and stick it down my shorts. Some are duds. Since I can't really tell which is which, I prefer to leave them be.
"happiness with a nice woman maybe in early 30s"
So, who said I wasn't happy? I've been through a lot, but I'm in a good place right now. What I'm saying is that I am happy and I do not want to lose that. I've taken an objective look at modern american women and found the situation high risk and low reward.
"men are the problem because they are attracted to appearance"
women who are average in appearance can be just as problematic as "beautiful" women. I think there might be a few attractive women on this thread that would disagree that being pretty makes you more likely to be immature or high maintenance. I feel bad that some women are passed over because of their looks; however I was very poor in high school and I know exactly what the girls thought of that- perhaps we need to create a dating site for average women and broke guys? Seriously though- men are naturally attracted to youth, boobs, hips, and healthy hair- its just about breeding and there's no fighting nature. Just like we can't fault women for finding men more attractive when they look like they have money.
Now that I think about it - in high school, all of us guys were passed over because girls our age were dating older men. So, if older men date younger women, at least we can say that women started it. how's that for maturity? ;p
ok- just to lighten things up a bit
June 10, 2009 by Anonymous, 3 weeks 2 days ago
Comment id: 37174
http://www.laddertheory.com
You Are Lucky
June 9, 2009 by Anonymous, 3 weeks 3 days ago
Comment id: 37170
Just dont worry about what others say,go for your heart,you will be oh so happy.
As iam in a similar situation..Black Keys
Wow - what a catch! Can you...
June 9, 2009 by Anonymous, 3 weeks 3 days ago
Comment id: 37166
I'm sorry, I think I misunderstood you. Please disregard my other post under this title.
anti-feminism makes you sexy
June 9, 2009 by Anonymous, 3 weeks 3 days ago
Comment id: 37165
I totally agree with what you're saying. I know I sound immature, especially compared to someone who has been married for so long and had to watch his wife die and also raise children. And you are still young... But please realize that most women want to get married and not work and want to be mothers. It's just a part of us! I always wanted to and so did all of my friends. It's the only thing we dreamed of... Maybe, for some reason, we just weren't considered "good enough", it always seemed like the guys I knew either did not want to settle down (until they were much older), or very, very picky and I never quite measured up - there was always someone taller, blonder, thinner...and then these guys would get very bitter when the woman that they fell in love with, and married, on her looks (and now, probably her youth) turned out to be a rotten bitch, but still, that doesn't mean that all females are like what you are thinking here. I'm sure you can date and find a lot of happiness with a nice woman, maybe in her early to mid-30's.
And also, most women who are working are doing so because they have to...They certainly aren't happy. I don't think they deserve to be blamed and disliked so much since this is truly not their fault.
Wow - what a catch! Can you...
June 9, 2009 by Anonymous, 3 weeks 3 days ago
Comment id: 37162
"See what I mean people?"
No really, what exactly do you mean??? And where are you getting your yardstick from???
wow- what a catch! Can you
June 9, 2009 by Anonymous, 3 weeks 3 days ago
Comment id: 37158
wow- what a catch! Can you you move in and help raise my little girls? I want them to grow up and be just lke you!
See what I mean people?
Hi
June 9, 2009 by Anonymous, 3 weeks 3 days ago
Comment id: 37157
Send ur email let see if older men are good in bed
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