“Cancer is a genetic disease. Its primary cause is mutagens in the environment, abetted by time and bad luck. A cell is controlled by the chromosomes in its nucleus, and when just the wrong combination of mutations happens to occur, a cell can begin to grow and multiply uncontrollably. The next crucial step occurs when the cell acquires the ability to travel through the bloodstream and implant somewhere else. The whole pathway from errant cell to malignant cell proceeds via chance mutations. From inception to metastasis, cancer is driven by genetics.”
This theory of cancer is more than 100 years old, but it didn’t become the dominant view until the 1950s, when, after Watson and Crick, genes assumed an exalted position in the study of biology. The “somatic mutation theory” continues to dictate the course of cancer research and treatment today.
It is uncontested that cancer cells have abnormal chromosomes. Dozens of different mutations have been found in malignant cells. They have been catalogued as different oncogenes, and because they are so different in their functions, cancer has been re-conceived from a single disease to a category containing many different diseases with similar symptoms.
Are mutated genes the root cause of cancer? Toxins that commonly break DNA (teratogens) are also found to cause cancer (carcinogens). Radiation, ditto. “Ionizing” radiation packs enough wallop in each photon to break a chemical bond, and is associated with cancer, while non-ionizing radiation (visible, infrared, and radio waves) is not mutagenic and generally not carcinogenic*. This has been taken as powerful circumstantial evidence for the prevailing theory.
A direct answer to the question of whether cancer originates in the nuclear DNA is available from an experiment that is simple in principle: Swap nuclei between two cells, one normal and one malignant. Take the mutated DNA out of a cancer cell and put it in a normal cell, to see if it becomes malignant. Take the un-mutated DNA out of a normal cell and put it in a cancer cell to see if the cell is rescued and restored to health.
This experiment has been technically feasible for more than 30 years, and indeed Barbara Israel and Warren Schaeffer actually performed both experiments at UVM and wrote them up in 1987 [ref, ref]. The results were exactly the opposite of what was expected: The cell with normal cytoplasm and cancerous nucleus was normal; the cell with normal nucleus and cancerous cytoplasm was cancerous. This result has been confirmed in other labs [reviewed by Seyfried, 2015]. Still, the genetic paradigm has a stubborn grip on cancer research and treatment to this day.
An alternative theory of cancer as a metabolic disease was put forth by the Nobel polymath Otto Warburg in the 1930s. The principal proponent of this theory today is Thomas Seyfried of Boston College. Seyfried cites evidence that damage to the nuclear DNA, conventionally thought to be a root cause of cancer, is actually an effect of the damaged mitochondria and irregular metabolism. “The metabolic waste products of fermentation can destabilize the morphogenetic field of the tumor microenvironment thus contributing to inflammation, angiogenesis and progression.”
Respiration and Fermentation
Every cell in our bodies (and almost every cell in all eukaryotes everywhere) makes uses of energy in the form of ATP, adenosine triphosphate. ATP is manufactured in the mitochondria, usually by a controlled burning of sugar to form CO2 and H2O. Highly energy-intensive cells such as muscles and nerves have thousands of mitochondria in each cell. The word “respiration” in this context is used to mean burning sugar in an efficient energy conversion process, yielding 38 ATPs for every sugar molecule. But when oxygen is scarce, perhaps because you’re breathing as fast as you can or sprinting in deep anaerobic mode, another process can be used to rapidly convert available sugar stock to lactic acid, requiring no oxygen at all, but yielding only 2 ATPs per sugar molecule. The latter process is called “fermentation”. (This observation explains the extraordinary effectiveness of interval training (sprints) for weight loss.)
Warburg was among the first to notice [1931] that most cancer cells use fermentation rather than respiration as an energy source. Metabolic studies pointed to damaged mitochondria in tumor cells that had become inefficient in producing sufficient energy through respiration. He theorized that impaired mitochondrial function is the root cause of cancer. In fact, Warburg did some of the early work establishing the role of mitochondria as cellular energy factories.
So most cancer cells are sugar addicts. They consume enormous amounts of sugar, both because they are actively growing and dividing, and also because they use sugar so much less efficiently than normal cells. A PET scan can be used to visualize concentrations of sugar in the body, and PET technology is often used to locate tumors.

Sugar is easily made from carbohydrate foods, and when you eat a diet containing carbs, sugar is the fuel of choice. Ketones are an alternative fuel used by the body when burning fat, either stored fat or ingested animal fat or vegetable oils. (Medium chain saturated fatty acids like coconut oil seem to be most effective in inducing metabolic ketosis.) Unlike sugar, ketone bodies cannot be fermented. They generate ATP energy only through oxidative respiration in the mitochondria.
The logical question:
Are zero-carb diets an effective treatment for cancer?
Some well-known cancer drugs (Gleevec, Herceptin) already target the fermentation metabolism. Acarbose has been proposed but not yet tried. But might it be safer and more effective to starve cancer cells by cutting carbohydrates in the diet to zero? There is a robust literature suggesting, “yes” [e.g., ref, ref, ref, ref, ref, ref, ref] but so far the results have been less than earth-shaking.
A search of ClinicalTrials.gov yields 25 trials of ketogenic diet variants for cancer treatment. Most are in early stages, 5 have been completed, 2 have results. In this study, the ketogenic diet, with or without chemotherapy, did not cure glioma. This small study found modest benefits in a variety of advanced cancers. These results are consistent with many mouse studies, in which some benefit was recorded from the ketogenic diet, but not a dramatic difference. The most encouraging results I have found was a study in which 9 of 11 mice treated with a combination of radiation and a ketogenic diet were cured of brain cancer. Clearly, this is no miracle cure, but it’s too early to give up–we’re just figuring out how to make the diet work, and it has not yet been tried except at late stages, after all else has failed.
Fasting shows more promise than ketogenic diets. (Perhaps fasting lowers blood sugar even more than ketogenic diets.) A series of studies by Valter Longo make the case that fasting simultaneously sensitizes cancer cells to chemo or radiation and de-sensitizes normal cells.
Seyfried has proposed a “press-pulse” system based on this vulnerability, targeting the glucose metabolism and the glutamine metabolism with hyperbaric oxygen. Besides glucose, glutamine is also a major fuel for tumor cells. Drugs will be required to target glutamine, as glutamine is the most abundant amino acid in the body and can be easily synthesized from glutamate. Hyperbaric oxygen requires a patient to be enclosed in a pressurized oxygen chamber or room filled with pure oxygen at 2.5 x atmospheric pressure. There is one highly encouraging case report for the success of this triple combination—hyperbaric oxygen, glucose inhibitors, and low-dose chemo—in which a late-stage, resistant breast cancer is driven to total remission.
Last week, a research paper from Duke U suggested a target for attacking the fermentation metabolism of cancer cells, and a marker for identifying which cancers are likely to be sensitive to it. The research group of Jason Locasale found a protein called GAPDH which switches to the fermentation metabolism, and a compounded called koninjic acid, extracted from fungi, that inhibits GAPDH. They have tested koninjic acid extensively in cell lines, and have begun testing in live mice. Whether such drugs are more effective than simply restricting glucose is a topic for investigation.

Mito-targeted Cancer Prevention
Supplements that promote mitochondrial health include CoQ10, PQQ, mitoQ/SkQ, alpha lipoic acid (ALA), carnitine, and melatonin. Can they lower risk of cancer? So far, we have just a few hints; this is a promising area for research.
CoQ10 was studied in the 1990s as a cancer treatment, with some encouraging results [ref]. PQQ has been shown to kill cancer in vitro [ref]. One mouse experiment looked at ALA as part of a cancer treatment [ref]. Use of carnitine remains theoretical [ref]. Most has been written about melatonin [ref, ref, ref], but even here, there is no epidemiological evidence.
The Bottom Line
All the evidence for radiation and other mutagens causing cancer might be re-interpreted in terms of mutations to mitochondrial DNA. (Mitochondria live in the cytoplasm, outside the cell nucleus, but they have a bit of their own DNA and ribosomes for transcribing it.) Damaged mitochondria can also cause cancer even when their DNA is intact, and Seyfried (after Warburg) makes a strong case that mitochondrial damage is the root cause of cancer. Inflammation is probably the single worst source of mitochondrial damage. Do we need one more reason to minimize inflammation? Viruses often target mitochondria for their own ends, and this may explain cases in which viral infections are associated with etiology of cancer.
The insight that mitochondrial damage is the root cause of cancer (preceding nuclear mutations) also has broad implications for cancer prevention. As for treatment, there have been a few disappointments and also some promising pilot studies, especially in combining glucose deprivation with radiation or chemo to finish the job (“press-pulse”). This is a research field that deserves much more attention.
__________
*There are exceptions to both these generalizations. There is controversy whether ionizing radiation at low dosages causes cancer [ref]; and cell phones (non-ionizing) have been linked convincingly to cancer risk, presumably by a different mechanism than breaking chromosomes [my column last year].
I sent a draft of this column to Thomas Seyfried, who was kind enough to edit it in detail and add references of which I was unware.
I was led to this subject by my co-author’s publisher, Chelsea Green, publishers of
Tripping over the Truth, by Travis Christofferson.
Discussion
363 reader comments
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Thanks for this. I believe I have throat cancer, so this may be my only post. I do think Melatonin can help with this and skin cancer though as it does seem to show some improvement in my symptoms.
Have fasted for three days and am not eating much now. Doing a hyperbaric session tomorrow.
Taking various other B Vitamins, but don't think they are having much effect.
Am seeing a Doctor within the next two weeks, but am not expecting a hopeful prognosis at all.
Or maybe ahem, it was just reflux. As someone said at work - if you hear hooves behind you think horses. Not Zebras*
* unless you are running on the serengeti
Hi Aldebaran
The acarbose study is interesting. Do you have a reference for that one. When I started on rapamycin my blood sugar was at its usual 99. One month in I was down to 80. At 2 months it climbed to 100. At 10 weeks I really felt great on it and my sugar was up to 115 and it's stayed there.I'm waiting on my insulin and IGF-1 levels, which are key in my mind. Also lost 15 lbs and exercise even more, yet my FBS stays at 115, it's an interesting phenomenon.
Hi Paul,
Sorry I missed that post but I guess we have already discussed plenty about ACA. I guess that if your FBS raised but your insulin level dropped, it might not be that bad. Also, could the raise of FBS be a transient effect in relation to weight loss?
I think that I went from a certain degree of insulin sensitivity to some insulin resistance. It's interesting. But I'm more concerned about insulin levels, IGF-1, and inflammation (crp), than I am about a rather arbitrary blood glucose. I mean according to the lab if my number is 99 then I'm ok, but if I'm 101 glucose then I should prepare my will.
I was taught long ago by a very wise and prominent mentor to treat the patient and not the lab.
I was working in a diabetic clinic and was very proud of myself for bringing down their blood glucose levels with insulin therapy but my mentor said to me, " Good work Paul, , now you have a bunch of fat diabetics that you've created ".
Lesson learned
Interesting experience with diabetics! I have been told that the tolerance for mistakes is one of the strength of America. It encourages people to take risks. This is certainly true for high tech.
In the medical field we're all making multiple mistakes every day. We just don't know it yet
The great chess master Tartakover used to say that the winner is the one who make the last before one mistake.
As for eliminating sugar as a cancer treatment, I recently read that 2,4-Dinitrophenol (DNP) works against cancer using a similar mechanism. "In living cells, DNP acts as a proton ionophore, an agent that can shuttle protons (hydrogen cations) across biological membranes. It dissipates the proton gradient across mitochondria and chloroplast membranes, collapsing the proton motive force that the cell uses to produce most of its ATP chemical energy. Instead of producing ATP, the energy of the proton gradient is lost as heat." The main side effect is body heat and sweating as well as lethargy from mitochondria not being able to produce ATP. Bodybuilders use DNP to burn fat off their bodies like a blowtorch.
Interesting. Are there any studies you can share Marcus?
Paul Rivas,
On the other hand there are many other plants, besides ashwagandha (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4658772/), presenting in studies positive effects on the autonomic nervous system and/or in reduction in lactic acid production. Among these plants are quercetin, resveratrol, curcumin and crataegus oxyacantha (Hawthorn).
Thanks Carlos
I'll check it out
Carlos
Can hawthorn be a digitalis substitute?
Paul, responding briefly to your question my feeling is that Hawthorn might offer some benefit for the prevention or in treatment of cancer. However, not to the point to guarantee that it has sufficient power to be a digitalis substitute.
For those of you who haven’t seen it yet, this is a very interesting talk by Steve Horvath about the epigenetic clock from last year:
https://youtu.be/0zaCKAnFogQ
Some quick take-aways:
For Horvath, this is more of a developmental clock than a biological age one. But it can fit both descriptions well.
Cancerous cells tend to exhibit much older profiles than normal cells
There doesn’t seem to be a correlation between average telomere length and epigenetic age.
Progeric children do not seem to age faster according to this measure.
Men tend to be older than women (due to large body size perhaps?, this is my idea, not Horvath’s) for the same chronological age. It would fit with the average shorter lifespans of most men.
Breast tissue in women tends to be significantly older than others. Is there any relation to the prevalence of breast cancer?
There is a correlation with a high carb diet and epigenetic age, but acc. to Horvath it is weak.
Right after differentiation iPSC’s already show measurable age epigenetically.
Thank you Adrian for sharing the highlights - I am a fan of Horvath. I am wondering if he has seen any change post puberty. As per recent studies many aging dysfunctions seem to starting just after reproductive organs are formed.
Horvath is a clever guy, and his method or those derived from it are undoubtedly a very accurate measure of age across tissues. But, and this a big one, there is currently no link betwen this measure of aging and the diseases of aging. It could well be that there is not any causation here at all, I.e. methylation just happens in a fairly random way, so it increases with time, but this is coincidental with aging. Or it could be that it causes some problems, but that these are not a big issue to the ages we currently live to. For example telomerase immortalised cells continue to clock up epigenetic decorations but this doesn't impede them from continuing to proliferate in any way. So this is probably why cancerous cells appear older by this measure, not because they have become cancerous because of this epigenetic age necessarily.
On the other hand we know the rate of epigenetic drift is set by MTOR, as it can be slowed by slowing MTOR, so perhaps a link can be established to premature senescence and that would go a long way to making Horvath's work really useful other than just as a measure.
We do not have anything close to a cure for aging. Inhibition of mTOR improves healthspan and hopefully some incremental lifespan will come to know when the pioneers to start rapamycin cross 100. In the meanwhile all of us have our pet theories. I am not negating any other theory because it could be right. But wanted to share my thoughts. I know you currently seem inclined towards telomere shortening as a cause for aging. I am currently inclined towards looking upstream for the cause and so epigenetic migration from puberty onwards seems where all dysfunctions downstream appear from. Of course what triggers the aging related epigenetic changes is yet unknown to me. Any of the dysfunctions when alleviated do show benefit and so seem to be a cause instead of an effect. I want to cite a recent study by Dr. Gary Samuelson called 'All in the Genes - Redox Signalling and another one by Thomas Wilhelm 'Neuronal Inhibition of the Autophagy Nucleation Complex Extends Life Span in Post Reproductive C.Elegans'. We have always considered autophagy as a beneficial process that dials down with aging and is a cause for accumulation of senescent cells which in turn have been shown in earlier cited study today as the starting point of all aging dysfunctions. But in Thomas's study they found that by inhibiting autophagy in old age there was significant improvement in lifespan and healthspan. The reason given for this paradox is that as we grow older the dysfunctions in our beneficial processes grow to such an extent the same become a major cause of damage to an extent where inhibiting them revives health and extends life. So the various effects or symptoms of Aging when acted upon would mitigate the damage caused by it and since everything so interconnected it has almost systemic benefits. Yet we can only expect booster dose from such interventions which too are most welcome but hopefully one of these days someone will find a way to reverse or stop the aging process at the very source whatever that may be. Till then every safe intervention that shows health benefits in human clinical trials are what may keep us alive till when the ultimate cure arrives.
I agree with you Akshay, I think we are still not seeing the big picture but - perhaps we are not too far away from the time when these diverse theories start to come together.
Personally at the moment I am of the opinion that Blagosklonny is closest in that the faster we are programmed to develop the faster all our biological systems seem to drift out of calibration as we get older. Whether this is a stochastic process with ROS damage to the everyday proteins we produce to live, or whether it is due to some sort of epigenetic deregulation of repair processes after puberty, or both, I just don't know. There are clearly some evolutuonary constraints though, like the SNPs for longer telomeres being dangerous for cancer and us needing senescent cells for wound healing and as a barrier to cancer. And these constraints need not apply to medical interventions, so we are already on the cusp of being able to reset these parts of aging, whatever fraction that might be.
Yesterday I took a brief look at the Horvath clock.
Two notes:
it uses Illumina27k data, so mostly promoters. I think no transposable elements are included in the raw dataset. So it cannot capture the well documented age related demethylation of transposable elements.
Looking at only one sample even thhough the data is not normalized, it looks like both the methylation and demethylation sites change the most at young age. So I believe Horvaths clock captures the epigenetic development program and he got lucky because this program continues into adulthood although in a much slower pace.
I wish I had some time to play around with the raw data, I think Illumina450k or Illumina850k might have a bunch of transposable element and telomeric sites.
Hi Alan
I think Horvaths clock is a strong clue for pleiotropy. But really I dont know what those promoters do and in which tissue.
Actually I think aging is programmed in a passive way. The organism could have evolved ways to overcome pleiotropy, but letting the developmental program run its course and become detrimental to the organism was evolutionary more favourable.
Hi Mark, you are right it's too early to tell whether this is just correlation. But I wouldn't say this is a random process. Quite the contrary, or the whole concept of an epigenetic clock would not be possible. It may well be 'drift' driven by the mTOR pathway after puberty, but it still seems to be very predictable. The only way I can see this being random is if the methylation patterns are caused by chromatin areas which are more exposed than others. But this doesn't seem too likely to me. Among other things, the pattern is reset in iPSC, so the cell seems to be in control of this process, at least to turn back the 'clock'.
I have to say I am a bit bummed that there is no correlation with average telomere length. Perhaps this is an example of the multiple ageing clocks Josh has proposed many times.
We need to get more granularity on exactly what is happening at different times in differing tissues with epigenetic changes. Exactly how much of this is important in terms of differentiation say, and how much is what I term random drift on those CpG islands. A process can definitely be random but still totally predictable, that is how atomic clocks work.
Horvath's theory is that the epigenetic changes are related to the work done by the cell to maintain epigenetic expression, which would explain how it happens faster in faster proliferating tissues, but also happens in post mitotic cells.
I agree with Mark that there exist random processes with overall perfectly predictable outcome at the global scale. For example radioactivity: the decay of a beta particle is a random process with fixed probability but if you have enough particles, you can predict with high accuracy when half of the particles will have decayed.
In the cases of the 353 CpGs defined by Horvath, it is more complicated because it contain 193 CpG that become hyper-methylated with age and 160 that become hypo-methylated, so you'll have to assume that the probability of CpG to become methylated or unmethylated is non uniform.
Even if the methylation / unmethylation of the CpG happen randomly, it can still be a causative factor of aging. For example, if CpG islands inside promoter regions of Transposable Element become hypo-methylated with age, these TE will be expressed which could disturb the cell function and increase its mutation load.
I actually would not be surprised if DNA methylation has a causative role in aging simply because it could promote the expression over time of initially silent TE. However, to my knowledge, Horvath has not investigated that point.
Hi Akshay,
Yes, there several recent publications about the role of Transposable Element in aging. In particular this one:
"Chromatin-modifying genetic interventions suppress age-associated transposable element activation and extend life span in Drosophila"
This study may be of interest:
'Downregulation of catalase by reactive oxygen species via hypermethylation of CpG island II on the catalase promoter' edited by our old friend Vladimir Skulachev.
In this paper they demonstrate that in a particular cancer hepatocellular carcinoma (HCC) prolonged exposure to ROS causes hypermethylation of the catalase promoter region, allowing further increases in ROS and metastasis of the cancer.
We already knew cancer had to hijack mitochondria to spread, and although the mechanism is not yet clear we now have reason to believe it is via epigenetic methylation.
More and more I cannot escape the notion that a species rate of aging is set by MTOR and mtROS and everything else is downstream of these fundamentals. Of course reducing MTOR and mtROS can only delay/slow down aging. If we want to reverse it we must look to reset the changes in telomeres, epigenetics, TEs, etc, that MTOR and mtROS have wrought.
Hi Mark,
Interesting link between ROS and DNA methylation. The caveat is that they have only looked at one CpG Island (catalase promoter) and only in-vitro (and only in HCC cells). It remains to be seen if ROS (particularly mitoROS) is a systematic cause of DNA methylation / demethylation. If yes, this could open new possibilities to slow down the epigenetic clock.
Yes you are right, these findings are very specific and only preliminary. However the weight of evidence in general is that the aging rate of species is set by MTOR and mtROS (mtDNA stability) as shown in the following paper:
'Do Mitochondrial DNA and Metabolic Rate Complement Each Other in Determination of the Mammalian Maximum Longevity?' Rejuvenation Research, 2008.
And we know epigenetic methylation patterns track aging extremely well, so it is not a huge leap to come to the conclusion that MTOR and mtROS are causing the epigenetic methylation patterns to change.
In my mind the question is: do these epigenetic changes then lead to aging, and if so can resetting them reset aging? Early signs from the work done by Belmonte et al, and reported in Josh's blog, tentatively suggest the answer may be yes.
ROS driving DNA demethylation absolutely makes sense. There are a lot of papers on the 3 or 4 step process of the oxidation of methylcytosine back into normal cytosine.
The other part of the epigenetic clock is more tricky IMHO. That part I believe is probably governed by changes in histone modifications.
Basically I believe histone modifications might expose DNA parts to methylation enzymes and the stochastic demethylation process as well.
Actually I am really curious wether the two parts of the loglinear Horvath model are really loglinear the same way. It may be that the two processes are completely separated, there is a development process with stepwise metylation of the developmental genes dominating early life and there is a stochastic demethylating the whole genome in an oxidation dependent manner.
It might also happen that the methylcytosine oxidation component is the one giving cadence to the development program.
Hi Gabor,
Do we know the cause of histone modifications? Could it be ROS and particularly mitoROS?
Also you said that histone modification can cause DNA methylation / demethylation but could it be the other way around? (could DNA methylation /demethylation be the cause of histone modifications?).
It is weird that some sites get methylated and others get demethylated. You would expect either methylation or demethylation to predominate.
Perhaps the histone modifications are driven by down regulation of deacetylase inhibitors like Sirtuins, opening up more of the genome to modification. This would provide a nice link back to mitochondria and ROS.
I sure this fascinating area will keep be reading papers for some time to come...
Yes I agree this looks weird. But as long as these changes contribute to increases the entropy of the cell, this is perfectly expected.
For example, if the lowest entropy is obtained when the ratio of methylated G is equal to RG, you would expect that every CpG island more methylated than RG will get less methylated with time and every CpG island less methylated than RG will get more
methylated with time.
I am sure I am oversimplifying the picture but this is just to give an example of how it could go both ways while still increasing the entropy in both cases.
I dont have any solid wisdom on histone modifications. I have collected a bunch of articles on my aging blog.
This one is outstanding
"Epigenetic regulation of ageing:
linking environmental inputs to
genomic stability"
Unfortunately it is not open access. I have found this one instead, which is open access and looks informative:
"Epigenetics and aging" Sci Adv. 2016 Jul; 2(7)
Gabor do you like this one too?
Yes that is a plausible explanation for why you might get some sites methylated and some sites demethlyated over time Aldebaran. I do not think that is what is happening however. I suspect that methylation is largely random, just tending to increase over time, but in general not having any great effect on gene expression. Demethylaton I suspect is mostly programmed, with cells keeping clear what they need to promote and maintain the required gene expresion, but with some stochastic demethylation too based on things like ROS.
I'm not an expert at all on epigenetics, but I'm getting this idea from lots of different papers.
Mark,
You know more than me on epigenetic and your explanation make sense. It would explain why we see both methylation and demethylation at the same time. I am currently reading some papers to get a better idea of what is going on. It is really a fascinating area and I suspect that our understanding of epigenetic and its implications in aging is going to dramatically improve in the years to come.
Extract from the paper above:
" For example, heterochromatin decay and histone loss lead to retrotransposition and changes in gene expression. But what causes the heterochromatin decay and block in histone protein synthesis during aging in the first place? We are currently limited in our knowledge of the sequence of the causal events during aging in healthy individuals. Attempts should be made in the near future to define the cascade of events during age progression to attain a comprehensive view of the aging process and to identify the initial causative events"
Extract from the paper above:
"Epigenetic drift leads to unpredictable differences in the methylome among aging individuals (Fig. 3). However, some of the methylation changes that occur with age are directional and involve specific regions of the genome. This fact indicates that at least part of the DNA methylation changes during aging are not stochastic but could be associated with biological mechanisms involved in the aging process. "
Hi Aldebaran,
you can access my blog if you clock on my nickname.
understandaging.blogspot.com
My understanding is that the epigenetic clock of Horvath is not stochastic. There is genuine demethylation and methylation going on as aging progresses. I think these are governed by histone modifications.
There is a stochastic demethylation as age progresses and it affects TE sequences. But Horvath's clock does not address those.
If you cannot access an article, try scholar.google.com and search. Under each article there is a link "All x versions". Clicking on that might reveal links to free copies. And then there is researchgate.net where you can ask a copy from the author. usually they give it away. and then there are russian and chinese webpages where you can find anything
Hi GaborB,
I find your blog interesting and informative. I will spend more time on it and will also read the attached articles. Also, thanks for the tips to get the articles.
It is just so frustrated how little we know about these epigenetic changes. I've changed my mind numerous times on the importance of the sites included in Horvath's clock. But based on the papers I've read where they immortalized cell lines and passaged them for a really long time, it appears to me that the locations he has included are so ubiquitous across tissue types precisely because they are not that important to function. I am happy to be proven wrong, let's wait and see what Horvath is working on.
Hi Akshay. He more or less addresses that question. At about minute 15 in that video he shows 2 graphs that chart the relationship between chronological and biological age, as measured by his methylation clock.
You can see that it spikes early in life, until about adolescence, then still quick until the early 20s, and then it flattens is follows chron. age very linearly.
I guess that at this point, you can make of it what you will. I think Horvath is honest is saying that we don't quite know yet what conclusions to draw from all this. But very interesting correlations nevertheless.
Agreed. Thanks.
Hi Akshay
I was first introduced to IP 6 and the work of Dr. Shamsuddin through your very informative post regarding supplements which have been shown to prevent/treat cancer. You may recall that he has done extensive research showing that IP6 alters gene expression in cancer cells causing them to alter their differentiation from poorly differentiated to well differentiated cells which then behave in a normal manner.
So anyway, I have a pediatrician friend who was telling me a heartbreaking story of a 2 year old girl with an inoperable neuroblastoma wrapped around her spinal cord.
Recalling your post , I called Dr. Shamsuddin last week and told him about this case , and that I had read his book, and I can say that he was extremely helpful and concerned and offered to reach out to the family himself and said that he has indeed had success with this tumor type.
It may well be a stretch in this case, I really don't know, but it's nice to know that all of the work involved in putting together various posts and comments could result one day in saving the life of a child.
Certainly not a waste of time.
Hi Paul, what is the proposed mechanism of action of IP6?
Hi Mark
I think you're certainly correct.
In terms of maintaining cells with telomerase activation it would seem that we're close to achieving that end.
Adding senolytics to rapamycin might be a good synergy if it's not overkill.
As for stem cell therapy, we may be getting closer there as well.
You may recall that they injected MSC's from healthy mice into mice with osteoporosis, and after 6 months the osteoporotic bone had given way to healthy , functional bone. Stem Cells Translational Medicine . William Stanford 2016
You'll find this interesting. There is a doctor in California with whom I correspond from time to time. He's an MD and masters in public health from Columbia Univ., and has written 2 books on telomeres as well as treating over 1000 patients with telomerase activators. He cites evidence that centenarians have a very homogenous distribution of telomere lengths, very few very long or very short, but rather a smooth distribution. Mech Ageing Dev 2008 Nov 129 (11) 638-41.
There is a patient of his named Karl, 72 y/o , with 7000 base pairs. He gave him 4 TA 65's a day.
After 1 year his median length dropped to 5900 with 25% very shorts
At 2 years he was down to 4900 with 27% very shorts
At 3 years he was back to 7550
At 4 years he was at 11,600 with only 3 % critically shorts.
He is now 77 and has stabilized at that number, apparently feels great and is still working.
Ed explained his initial 2 year drop as this:" If you induce apoptosis in older damaged stem cells, then you get a representation by younger or replacement stem cells with telomere lengths more closely distributed around the original middle of 15kbp for every telomere. With apoptosis and replacement, you don't have those old and overgrown telomeres around as much. This kind of drop in median length is not uncommon and something that no one else is discussing yet. "
That is interesting Paul, and is consistent with what the recent Ta-65 trial found - a small but significant effect with 1 Ta-65 pill a day (for a year), but no improvement with 4 pills a day. I think that this is probably not a bell shaped response curve, but something else. I'm not so sure about Ed Park's explanation. I would say it is probably more to do with rescuing senescent cells, with initially very short telomere lengths.
The study: A Natural Product Telomerase Activator Lengthens Telomeres in Humans: A Randomized, Double Blind, and Placebo Controlled Study. Rejuvenation Research , Dec 2016.
I'd say that you are right
He now uses ashwaghanda, rhodiola, holy basil, and curcumin along with ta65 to get more of a bang out of telomerase activation.
Check this out Paul,
'Identification of Telomerase-activating Blends From Naturally Occurring Compounds.' Altern Ther Health Med. June 2016.
The blend they settled on was broccoli extract, astralagus, rhodiola and Vit D, and it was comparable or better than Ta-65 at telomerase activation in vitro, in the cell type examined. The components are also far more bioavailable.
Thanks Mark I'll look at it. With me at least, rhodiola has an initial calming effect, but then seems to accumulate and makes me anxious. Ashwagandha does the same thing.
I'll have to try it again; already take the others.
So we now know of several substances , which taken together , probably activate telomerase more than ta 65 does,, but we have actual human data showing a telomere effect with ta 65 that we don't have with the others. What to do ?
I asked Bill Andrews if they had thought about combinations of cycloastragenol with other things to exploit different mechanisms of action of telomerase activation. He said they did and it was called their Synergy project. So even he thinks a combination will yield greater results.
Interestingly their new telomerase activator, TAM818 I think it's called, from the patents looks to be an altered version of cycloastragenol with much improved bioavailability.
I didn't know Bill Andrews said that, but I've heard him say that he'll not consider aging solved until you get someone like a long faded movie star come back on stage looking 25. In my opinion that is what a proper solution to aging will look like, and Bill is right to be ambitious.
Hi Mark,
This study is interesting. The TL elongation obtained with low dose TA65 looks convincing although the lack of effect with the larger dose is puzzling. This is actually the sort of compound that might work better in human than mice since mice have much longer telomeres.
However, we don't have yet convincing data showing a positive impact of telomere elongation on human life span do we? Do we even know if replicative senescence is a major contributor of the senescent cells in our body? If not, then elongating telomeres might not be that useful (outside of maybe reducing cancer rates by reducing the proportion of critically short telomeres).
I really like the research around telomere elongation but it is hard to quantify its impact without any life span study.
Well it helped mice and they don't suffer from replicative senescence at all, so my bet is that it will be very helpful for humans. As Paul has been saying, anything that helps with reducing or correcting senescence is going to help, regardless of the path it took to reach senescence. There are also other things that make me think it will useful, namely a Shay and Wright study showing how gene expression changes from young to old to senescent cells and how telomere lengthening restores almost all of it. Also another paper showing how the majority of the changes in the aging brain are down to glial cells rather than neurons, which matches what Michael Fossel has been saying all along about Alzheimer's. I'll try and dig out the papers.
Also there is a mouse lifespan study that acheived quite a significant lifespan extension. Done by Blasco et al, but with a telomerase gene therapy, not telomerase activators, which appear from what I can tell to have very bad bioavailability.
'Telomerase gene therapy in adult and old mice delays aging and increases longevity without increasing cancer'.
These are good points. I am not confident enough to consider taking telomerase activators yet but definitely something to follow-up.
At extreme ages we definitely suffer from replicative senescence. Just look at old skin or blood. My 98-year-old grandfather-in-law needed constant transfusions because he had stopped making his own RBCs (of course the transfusions are probably was parabiosed him to 98 ;)
Confirmation bias warning, I worked for Shay-Wright for five years.
Hi Bill,
But do we know for a fact that most of the cells that become senescent with age do so because their telomeres become critically short?
I don't doubt that cells become senescent with age but I am just not sure if it is mostly related to telomere length or not.
Hi Bill,
Good joke about parabiosis, a variation of new blood in old bottles. Vampire myths were already old wives tales in 19th century and appear to go back a few thousand years. Naturally it should be the next big thing in anti-aging crackpot medicine.
As regards unexplained anemia in 98 year old; my experience is stem cells making blood, skin, mucosa, liver continue to function very nicely in old age. So If he died from unexplained anemia and I was the Medical Examiner on the case: I would be more likely to order full toxicology to rule out intentional or accidental poisoning, than to write on death certificate, "anemia due to short telomeres".
aldebaran, the cultured BJs that senesced in my dishes in the lab had shorter telomeres than lower-PD cells. But I'll be the first to say that you could keep them from senescing for another 20 PDs if you grew them in fetal serum...
Alan, parabiosis (actual parabiosis, not just adding plasma) has been extending the lives of rats since the 1880s. Not to mention Bogdanov's little experiment (no doubt with blood from the "kulaks").
Parabiosis works for sure in rodents, and if you cloned yourself it would be hard to understand why it wouldn't work in humans. (Simply adding plasma may fix fewer problems than connecting a young immune system, liver etc. of course).
Blood cell counts routinely fall in the very old. I doubt that they're ALL being poisoned for their estates... or that if they were, the poisoners would all be using blood poisons instead of neutotoxins.
Hi Bill,
Are you aware of any study showing life extension in mice with parabiosis? The only one that I have looked at is a life span study on mice receiving plasma transfusion of young blood during all their lives and they did not have longer life than control. My knowledge about parabiosis is close to zero so I am not saying anything negative. I am just interested to look at the facts.
This study shows that biological aging can be measured accurately by the proteins in the blood.
'Protein profiling reveals consequences of lifestyle choices on predicted biological aging'.
Shows the benefits of coffee drinking and oily fish, as well as the harmful effects of smoking, sugary drinks/sweets and obesity.
Obviously not as simple as giving an old person young blood. This is more about the state of our blood being a reflection of the state of our body. Hence hooking rats together helps the old rat but harms the young one.
Hi Mark,
Very interesting paper about protein profiling.
I will try to find the time to read it carefully today.
Thanks,
Hi Alderbaran,
re replicative senescene as cause of aging:
I think telomerase might be misleadingly named, Maybe it should be called "immortalase". It does much more than just elongating telomeres.
Replicative senescence by telomere shortening is just an extra protecion against cancer in long living animals.
But telomerase - immortalase is something that we inhibited from our pre multicellular or pre triploblastic origins. I think telomerase is just a protection against runaway asexual reproduction which is bad for the long term health of the gene pool for the unicellular eucaryotic organism.
Multicellular, and especially triploblastic organisms have another layer of control on top of the telomerase and this layer is most probably epigenetic.
This epigentic layer can control telomerase and causes age related organismal senescent via the p16 pathway. Also the cell loses its multicellular function if it loses its epigentic information through epigenetic aging, which is just a continuation of the developmental program.
So I think telomerase immortalized mulitcellular cells sooner or later lose their multicellular nature because they can no longer maintain their epigenetic state.
Even if they are immortal unicellular beings I doubt they can form functional multicellular tissue ever again.
Cellular aging is probably telomerase (much more than telomere length!) dependent, whereas organismal aging is epigentic in nature.
Hi Gabor,
Thanks for your comments. If I understand correctly your point you are saying in particular that:
1) Aging of multi-cellular organism is essentially controlled by epigenetic changes
2) Cellular aging can be fully controlled by telomerase. However, systematic activation of telomerase cannot be used blindly to rejuvenate multi-cellular organisms because it would erase the epigenetic information encoded into differentiated cells (and so they would end-up losing their identity).
Certainly it seems very plausible to me that aging of multi-cellular organism could be controlled by epigenetic changes to some degree but I tend to think that mitoROS plays also a role in aging. However, it could be that mitoROS are also controlled by epigenetic changes or it could be the other way around. In any case, I find your opinion interesting
Since you mentioned that telomerase control cell aging, is it systematically expressed when cells are reprogrammed (into iPS cells)?
yes, I am trying to pull together the two facts that telomere dependent replicative senscent does not make mouse older, so there must be something epigentic controlling it.
however my claim that telomerase immortalized cells lose their function might not be correct, as there are papers on engrafting telomerase immortalized cell lines into living organisms with success.
unfortunately I have only found one paper that separates epigenetic aging from replicative aging, stating that epigenetic aging continues
"Epigenetic clock analyses of cellular senescence and ageing"
stating that cells continue to age epigenetically after telomerase immortalization.
I contacted the author and he told me that the telomerase immortalized cells
"they age morphologically and epigenetically as they are cultured. "
Very interesting GaborB, but can you explain what you mean by 'This epigentic layer ...causes age related organismal senescent via the p16 pathway'? How is this different to the p21 pathway triggered by replicative senescence?
Also to my knowledge telomerase immortalized cells passaged in vitro have not ever been seen to lose their differentiation; although I'll admit that is plausible (after all it happens when you go the other way generating iPSCs) it might not happen in a timescale to be meaningful in human aging.
Btw I totally agree with how you've explained telomerase as a defence against genetic uniformity in single celled colonies now being used as a defence against cancer in multicelled life. Very well put.
Alderbaran, it is my belief that MTOR and mtROS are driving epigenetic changes both through telomere erosion and more general methylation changes unrelated to the cells ability to proliferate (that is controlled by telomerase). This is how the aging rate is set for different species. The big unanswered question in my mind is how important the methylation changes are in human aging (outside the problems related to shortening telomeres).
sorry, I wanted to reconcialiate the two facts that mouse does not have telomere dependent replicative senescence and in humans epigenetic aging is more correlated with chronological age than telomere length.
I think that in mice MTOR is set so high (grow up and breed quick before you are killed!) that most of their cells senesce simply through replicative stress, regardless of telomere length. MtROS is also really high too so this probably contributes to general stress on their DNA causing senescence due to DDR.
It would be very interesting to see if mice have the same epigenetic methylation pattern changes as humans, but over a shorter timescale. I believe the answer is yes, see Fig 3b from:
'Caloric restriction delays age-related methylation
drift'
The big question for me is are these epigenetic methylation changes just a clock, or are they a cause of aging?
Hi Mark,
p21 and p16 pathways are somewhat independent as described in this paper
"Mechanisms of cellular senescence in human and mouse cells"
I share your doubts about telomerase immortalized cells. I yet have to find concise evidence whether they have runaway epigenetic aging and whether it matters. I have only found one paper yet that investigates both epigenetic aging and telomere dependent senscence.
It might well be that these other (non telomere inhibited) epigenetic changes increase the change of cancer, I posted a paper in the discussion downstream somewhere about ROS causes epigenetic downregulation of catalase expression then allowing metastasis via the mitochondria.
You wouldn't see this in vitro (too few cells), but it would become relevant in vivo.
Just speculating at this point.
There has been a great debate in the 2000s over what is required for cell immortalization. Is telomerase alone sufficient, or is p16 inhibition also necessary.
I think those experiments should be repeated in light of the findings of the epigenetic clock.
My current hunch is that epigenetic clock should be lethal in itself because of epigenetic de inhibition of transposable elements. But if it is not the case a second guess is that epigenetic clock is sensed by p16. The third guess is the epigenetic clock simply measures the loss of stem cell plasticity that determines the functional fitness of the daughter cells in tissue and p16 measures this.
According to the paper you posted on p21 and p16, some cells are extra sensitive and sometimes senesce early before getting short telomeres. They don't know what the mechanism for that is in that paper, but from reading around it seems p16 is mainly used by cells to detect oncogene activation, as opposed to p53/p21, which is a more general arrest on cells (often but not always due to replicative senescence). Suppressing p16 in vitro allowed such cells to continue on to final p21 mediated replicative arrest.
I think your idea has merit. If it is true then in those sensitive cells that more often produce p16, even when immortalized by telomerase, should gradually lose proliferating cells to p16 arrest. Blocking p16 would prevent this loss, but perhaps at the cost of cancerous transformation in cells (eventually). This fits in with what both Akshay and I have said about epigenetic changes being relevant to cancer.
The question still remains about how much this matters, i.e. if all the cells in our bodies were periodically refreshed by telomerase, would we still age due to other arrest signals related to non telomeric epigenetic changes.
Wow.
I went looking and immediately found a paper that completely supports your idea (at least in those sensitive, p16 prone WI-38 cells).
See 'Prolonged Culture of Telomerase-Immortalized Human Fibroblasts Leads to a Premalignant Phenotype'.
Note the part where they show telomerase immortalised WI-38 cells have much lower colony forming efficiency then before immortalization, suggesting something else is stressing them (causing a p16 response perhaps?), until about 250 passages when the cells that were successful start to dominate and look more and more like cancerous cells.
This to me looks like a tentative validation of the idea that even after telomerase immortalisation, cells eventually face the choice of senescence (aging) or cancerous transformation.
Yes I have read that article before but there is also a rebuttal.
"Absence of cancer-associated changes in human fibroblasts immortalized with telomerase"
I think a lot depends on culture conditions and cell types whether there will be a malignant transformation or not.
But in general I believe p16 has to be overcome for telomerase immortalization. In some cultures the researchers silence p16, in some cultures hTERT expression makes p16 methylated somehow.
"Methylation of the p16INK4a promoter region in telomerase immortalized human keratinocytes co-cultured with feeder cells"
In some cultures p16 inhibitor bmi-1 is overexpressed.
I have found a study where they had an intact p16 dependent senescent pathway in telomerase immortalized culture, yet cells went into senescent when they forcibly expressed p16.
"Telomerase Induces Immortalization of Human Esophageal Keratinocytes Without p16 INK4a Inactivation"
So I think they disrupted the pathway acting against immortalization in another way or maybe the epigenetic clock was not advancing.
These are all decade old articles I believe without a concise conclusion. I think there are a lot of low hanging fruits there that could be reaped using the epigenetic clock with relatively low research budget. Although a whole epigeneome investigation alone costs some 10k dollars. + the cell culture research. but still much cheaper than mouse models imho
Yes, maybe you are right and this is just an artifact of the cell culture and cell type being 'trained' to go down a certain developmental path, i.e. do not heed contact inhibition.
We need these experiments repeated with multiple cell types by Horvath's team to see what is going on at the epigenetic level. As far as I am aware he has done this only up to 50 passages of endothelial cells and observed that when immortalized they did not senesce but that they continued to age epigenetically. Perhaps it is not possible in vitro to determine what would eventually stop them for the reasons we've discussed above.
My current understanding is that protein synthesis increases with age because ribosome biogenesis increases with age due to epigenetic changes (in particular histone modifications). This is one reason why I think TOR should be inhibited with age (to counterbalance the increase in protein synthesis). In that sense, epigenetic modifications are exacerbating TOR.
Therefore, if we were able to reverse epigenetic changes, we would likely restore TOR signaling to a normal level. In my view, it would be a better option than to inhibit TOR signaling.
This is a nice article that support and expands on the one we discussed above:
'Immortality, but not oncogenic transformation,
of primary human cells leads to epigenetic
reprogramming of DNA methylation and
gene expression'.
The title is misleading. It is basically saying that immortalized cells gain methylation over time and that some of it favours their long term survival and plasticity. The most interesting point however, is that most methylation occurs on sites that are already inactive in the non-immortal parent cell line, as is essentially stochastic (as I have long argued).
So I am back where I started. The Horvath clock is looking more than ever like a selection of epigenetic changes (certainly the hypermethylated part) that are not important to a cell's survival. Otherwise they would not be permitted. The remainder are probably cell adaptations to conditions rather than drivers of aging. How does the Horvath clock independently predict mortality then? Probably just through an association or correlation with other aging factors.
Most cell culture is done under completely crazy non-physiological conditions. Cells in the body are at 1-2% O2, human instead of cow serum, attached to other cells not plastic....
there's a limit to what you can conclude from watching cells in culture. But I will say that telomerized cells grow a little faster than the untelomerized, in many, many different species.
Hi Bill,
why people dont try to understand what lies beneath the differential behavior that depends on the cell culture. as an outsider I would think a lot of knowledge could be gained this way.
Also do you happen to know why nobody does iPSC generation with C. elegans? I found zero articles about this.
I was recently struck by an article showing that the popular herb ashwagandha root extended the lifespan of C. elegans by an impressive 20%.
" Kumar, R . " Withania somnifera root extract extends lifespan of C. elegans". Annals Res Article.2013.
This was followed up with an article showing that ashwagandha also increases telomerase activity by 45%. " W. somnifera root extract enhances telomerase activity in the human HeLa cell line. Raguraman,V. Advances in Bioscience and Biotech. Vol 07 (2016).
It is also known that Ashwagandha inhibits both of the inflammatories, NF-kB and COX.
This is also true of Milk Thistle which is also a telomerase activator. So I thought that this may be a common denominator, but I am unaware of any significant life extension from milk thistle.
But Ashwagandha has one other attribute in that it decelerates senescence, which milk thistle does not. " Deceleration of senescence..... Widodo, N J Gerontol 2009 Oct 64 (10) 1031-8.
In fact if you look at the life extending substances, not healthspan but lifespan, they all seem to have actions on cellular senescence in common, not anti-inflammation or telomerase.
Rapamycin is a good example of the above.
White Willow Bark, recently shown to extend lifespan very significantly in yeast, is in fact an anti-inflammatory ( COX 1&2), but it does in fact up regulate AMPK and inhibits TOR, thereby affecting senescence, which is now probably its life extending effect.
Pietsch demonstrated a life extending effect of Quercetin in C. elegans, and studies have shown that to range from 16 to 23%. " Quercetin mediated lifespan extension in C. elegans......" Biogerontology 2009 Oct. 10 (5) 564-78.
Quercetin is a senolytic agent as demonstrated by Zhu, Y Aging Cell 2015 Mar 9
The relationship with all of these agents on senescence rather than inflammation or telomerase activation , or even on combinations of the above, is rather surprising to me.
I would love to know what others think of this.
Interesting observations Paul. Senescence has been shown to cause inflammation in studies. A study that corrobates your comments 'Cellular Senescence as the Causal Nexus of Aging' by Csoka et al published 2016 in Frontiers in Genetics says "Thus senescence is a precondition for anatomical aging, and this explains why aging is a gradual process that remains largely invisible during most of its progression. The subcellular damage includes shortening of telomeres, damage to mitochondria, aneuploidy, and DNA double-strand breaks triggered by various genetic, epigenetic, and environmental factors. Damage pathways acting in isolation or in concert converge at the causal nexus of cellular senescence. In each species some types of damage can be more causative than in others and operate at a variable pace; for example, telomere erosion appears to be a primary cause in human cells, whereas activation of tumor suppressor genes is more causative in rodents. Such species-specific mechanisms indicate that despite different initial causes, most of aging is traced to a single convergent causal nexus: senescence. "
Unity Bio a start up that has discovered a synthetic senolytic molecule raised $115 million from the likes of Jeff Bezos - one of the larger fund raises in anti-aging this year.
Hi Akshay
Very interesting study. What I was expecting when I looked at these lifespan extending substances was that they would have several things in common, i.e.,m TOR inhibition and telomerase activation, or anti-inflammation + a senescent cell effect, or perhaps they would have nothing at all in common and would all be acting through separate pathways.
Senescence seems to be the key target with each of them.
C 60 may be an exception but we really don't know its mechanism yet.
Interesting about Bezos and Unity Bio. I certainly wish them luck.
Hi Paul,
This is certainly interesting. I am unaware of any life span study on mammals with "ashwagandha" but it would certainly be worth a try. Regarding Quercetin, however, it has been tried on mice by Spindler and al. and the result was negative (as with many other compounds supposedly good for health and longevity):
"Influence on Longevity of Blueberry, Cinnamon, Green and Black Tea, Pomegranate, Sesame, Curcumin, Morin, Pycnogenol, Quercetin, and Taxifolin Fed Iso-Calorically to Long-Lived, F1 Hybrid Mice"
Longevity experiments on C. Elegans are surely very useful but as you certainly know, two serious issues are sensitivity to genetic background and reproducilbility. For example:
"Impact of genetic background and experimental reproducibility on identifying chemical compounds with robust longevity effects"
Nature Communications 8, Article number: 14256 (2017)
I consider very unlikely that a compound which doesn't extend the life span of mice can increase the life span in humans. However, I might be wrong.
This is certainly not to say that senolytics are not promising. From what I remember, it is rather that Quercetin itself is not a very efficient or very specific senolytic (at least in mammals). Maybe it needs to be combined with other compounds to be efficient.
Thanks Aldebaran
I wasn't really aware of the serious limitations of C. elegans since it seems to be used so often. I'm also wondering if there may be synergistic positive effects if you took all of the substances that work on C elegans and give that concoction to a mammal. Synergy may be an effective solution, and of course it's always difficult to get the dosing just right.
Hi Paul,
The lack of robustness of C. Elegans life span experiments has led to the creation of the CITP (C.Elegans Intervention Testing Program) by Gordon Lithgow and others to workaround the issues by testing compounds across multiple labs and multiple strains. So results generated by the CITP are likely more reliable than others.
I think your idea to explore synergistic effects of multiple compounds on mice life span is really good but I am not aware of any such experiment on mice (excepted Rapamycin + Metformin at the ITP).
However, the following paper did exactly that on C. Elegans with both good and surprising results so definitely something to explore:
Slowing ageing using drug synergy in C. elegans
Tesfahun Dessale, Krishna Chaithanya Batchu, Diogo Barardo, Li Fang Ng, Vanessa Yuk Man Lam, Markus R. Wenk, Nicholas S. Tolwinski, Jan Gruber
You teach me something new every day
Really glad that I can be teach you anything at all given how much I am learning from you and others!
You mean the one about drug synergy in C. elegans? Yes I read it a couple of weeks ago. Very promising but this is only a first step in my mind. Next step should be to reproduce their results with various strains / labs (a la CITP). After that, run a mice/rats study with the most promising combinations.
Good points about allantoin and Rifampicin. They might be onto something new to slow down aging (outside of CR mimetics).
Also, they confirm life extension of some cocktails on flies, which is nice to see.
I definitely like their conclusion:
" Our proof-of-principle study suggests that
beneficial synergistic and additive interactions affecting key longevity pathways are unexpectedly
common and evolutionarily conserved. These data support the feasibility of targeting multiple
conserved ageing pathways using existing drugs to slow down biological ageing rate, an approach
that, if translatable to humans, would result in dramatic medical and economic benefits"
The life extension obtained on Flies with Rapamycin + Rifampicin + Allantoin looks quite impressive as well (76.6% mean LS and 76.6% max LS).
They had several interesting observations. One is that synergy is effective at sub-optimal doses of each substance. Full doses of rapa+metformin added no increase in life extension, but 1/2 doses of each did give a synergistic positive response.
The other important thing is that the greatest effect was if each substance worked through separate pathways.
I couldn't find any longevity mechanism for rifampin except for a lecture given by a botanist on senescence, where he demonstrates that rifampin retards senescence on the leaves of certain plants. He also states that Meristem does not undergo senescence and is essentially immortal.
A similar finding was also seen with Allantoin, again with plants , in a paper entitled
" Method for protecting plants from stress and senescence".
It's interesting that inhibiting senescence keeps showing up, though I understand that plant studies are a stretch, but still that seems to be the common goal of all of these life extending agents, albeit by different pathways.
Interesting findings about senescence. On my side, I have found 2 articles of interest about Rifampicin but they seem unrelated to senescence inhibition AFAIK.
The first one is about C.Elegans again. They claim that RIF extends life span of C.Elegans through AGE inhibition. If true, this could have big implications for diabetics (and even for non-diabetics).
"Rifampicin reduces advanced glycation end products and activates DAF-16 to increase lifespan in Caenorhabditis elegans"
Aging cell Volume 14, Issue 3 June 2015
The second article focus on the anti-inflammatory action of\ RIF on neurons.
However, it is not open access so I could only read the abstract:
"Rifampicin inhibits microglial inflammation and improves neuron survival against inflammation"
Brain Research
Volume 1395, 13 June 2011, Pages 12-20
In any case, RIF looks more and more interesting for anti-aging. I hope mice studies are ongoing.
Seems that RIF side effects are overall pretty acceptable. Thanks for the info. Very exiting indeed.
Here is an interesting article regarding cellular senescence
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/03/170308092443.htm
From the Article:
[ They discovered that the enzyme SETD8 methyltransferase, which adds methylation on histone H4 lysine 20 (H4K20), regulates senescent features.
Normal cells stop proliferation after dividing many times (replicative senescence), and when oncogenes are activated for cancer initiation, senescence occurs to prevent it (oncogene induced senescence).
the past, SETD8 was reported to regulate cell proliferation and gene function via H4K20 mono-methylation, but its relation to cellular senescence was unknown.
The researchers, however, found that SETD8 decreased markedly in senescent cells.
When they performed a gene knockdown experiment (using RNA interference) to suppress the function of SETD8 in fibroblasts, cellular senescence was induced with typical features.
Furthermore, using a drug that inhibits the enzyme activity of SETD8, similar senescent cells appeared.
In other words, SETD8 plays a role in preventing cellular senescence.]
The article conclusion:
[ This research reveals that SETD8 protects against cellular senescence. It is expected that this result will be useful for understanding the mechanisms of senescence and developing a way to control cell aging.
This finding was first reported in Cell Reports on February 28th, 2017. ]
Interesting findings aboout SETD8. I would be curious to see if SETD8 reduction or over-expression have any impact on animal life-spans.
One cautious note about the article is that they seem to overstate the importance of senescent cells for aging:
"Since senescent cells are more active than expected, cellular senescence is considered to be the cause of the aging phenomena for the whole body. For example, it has been reported that when senescent cells of old mice are eliminated, whole body aging can be suppressed. In other words, if we can adjust cellular senescence, whole body aging may be controlled."
Suppression of senescent cells has so far produced very interesting results on mice but the magnitude of the increase in maximal life span increase is around 10% (recent talk from Judith Campisi) , though effect on health span and mean LS is more impressive. This suggests to me there are more important factors driving aging.
Hi Alan, Paul,
Thanks for your comments about the importance of senescent cells in aging. Always great to have your opinion.
The comments from Judith Campisi about max life span can be seen here around min 17 in the following talk from:
"Prolonging Life Span? - Judith Campisi - Rejuvenation Biotechnology 2016"
To my knowledge, the max LS extension obtained with rapamycin + metformin on mice is around 10% on male and 17% on females (at least at the ITP):
"Longer lifespan in male mice treated with a weakly estrogenic agonist, an antioxidant, an α-glucosidase inhibitor or a Nrf2-inducer"
Finally, I want to mention a recent TED talk from Andrei Gudkov (from Everon bioscience) that was posted here recently by John: "Can we stop aging?"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3irS84U8rs
His point is that senescent cells are rather the tip of the iceberg (around 12:30) but there is a more fundamental epigenetic aging clock which drives cells to become senescent with age (driven by retro-transposition).
I don't have a strong opinion here but just want to provide information for more discussions.
Hi Alan,
I certainly agree that, as of today, the best anti-aging strategy is to reduce mTOR (through rapamycin, CR, exercice in particular).
Hi Alan,
Regarding the theory of Blagosklonny, my understanding is that TOR become hyperactive with age and drive cells to become senescent. Therefore, reducing TOR reduces the production of senescent cells and likely reduce the rate of aging. This is what rapamycin does.
What is not completely clear to me is the following: how much senotherapy (the removal of senescent cells resistant to apoptosis) will affect the rate of aging.
My understanding is that reducing the production of senescent cells by reducing TOR and removing senescent cell with senotherapy are two different ways to address aging. I know that Blagosklonny address the first point but I do not know if he address the second one as well.
In the article above, my understanding was that the authors were saying that clearing senescent cells (not reducing their production through mTOR reduction) would control whole body aging. I thought that was a bit of an overstatement as of today. However, I might have misunderstood their statement.
To be clear, I think senotherapy are one of the most promising future anti-aging treatments but I don't know how much we can expect from it in term of max life span increase. You have certainly better information than me about that.
Alan,
Thanks for clarifications about Blagosklonny theory and your perspective about clearing senescent cells.
My sense is that we are making huge progress in our ability to collect the data that could be relevant for aging (genome, epigenome, metabolome, microbiome). The only think I am confident about is that this technological progress will continue in the 2-3 decades to come. It is tempting to bet that this will help us to better understand aging in the near future. However, this is just my speculation.
Hi Paul,
I agree with all of what you say. It is great to see that some experts are optimistic about delaying aging (maybe even more than what we have today with rapamycin).
One of the main question is: can we do something about the "Post aging syndrome" in the not too distant future.
In addition to all the things you have mentioned I am wondering if epigenetic partial reprogramming could be another viable option.
I am optimistic that the record of 122 will be broken but if it is only due to rapamycin, we'll have to wait at least 40-50 years to see that. Best case: a "natural supercentenarian" (someone who would reach 110 without anti-aging treatment) currently in his 70-80 years old is on rapamycin today and he'll delayed his death by 5-10 more years to break the record. And I think the chance of living to 110 today are 1 over 10 millions or so.
Has IP-6 produced any life extension an an animal model? Could be promising.
Hi Paul,
Thanks for the info about IP 6.
Just started to read:
"IP6 in Cancer Therapy: Past, Present and Future"
Agata Matejuk and Abulkalam Shamsuddin
My first impression is that it certainly look promising but since IP 6 is already present in appreciable quantity in grains cannot we have the same benefit by eating lots of grains? Probably the answer is in the paper.
Also, pilot studies for cancer were promising but has there been more cancer trials since 2010?
It would be useful in my opinion to start a mice life span study with IP 6. I understand that it is expensive and that Dr Shamsuddin might not be interested that much though.
Hi Akshay,
Thanks for these precisions!
Hi Paul,
Thanks.
I understand that many promising compounds are not tested in clinical trials because of cost. Too bad but it is a reality. In term of brand, would you tend to recommend a particular one for IP 6 supplement or any would be OK.
Thanks again
Thanks Paul,
This is very helpful information!
Hi Paul,
I was thinking in particular about the kind of approaches described in the following papers (which unfortunately are not open access):
"In Vivo Amelioration of Age-Associated Hallmarks by Partial Reprogramming" Cell Volume 167, Issue 7, 15 December 2016
"Anti-Aging Strategies Based on Cellular Reprogramming"
Trends in Molecular Medicine
Volume 22, Issue 8, August 2016
However, this is very recent so we'll have to wait few years to see first results in normal mice (so far they have demonstrated the concept on a mouse model of premature aging).
Do you think it looks promising?
Thanks
I'll check them out!
Hi Aldebaran,
I think there is one case of eigenetic reprogramming. The case of oldest living man in world at 113, excellent mental shape who was rescued from Aushwitz in Jan 1945, age 40, survived 6 months, 80 pounds when rescued by Russians. I think 6 months hard labor and starvation did something.
Hi Alan,
I agree. Very interesting case. Looks like there could be some potential if we find a safe way to apply epigenetic reprogramming to humans.
Hi,
It also occured to me that holocaust and world war survivors live so much longer than average people. But it could just be selection bias. They may have survived these hardships because they were more fit than their peers. And they lived longer for the same reason.
I've thought about this before. I wonder if suppressing MTOR to a very low level for 6 months can permanently suppress MTOR even if eating habits return to normal? We would need to know the details of his life after he regained his freedom. And as Gabor said, we'd not know for sure he wasn't born with a low MTOR.
I have always read that in order to get longevity benefit for CR one has to get 100% RDA of vitamins and micro-nutrients but this case seems to show that CR (or mTOR reduction) is more robust than that. Clearly, they were malnourished in camps.
Hi Paul,
I was not aware of the controversy about PR. Thanks for posting data.
The only way I can think of to drastically reduce MET intake would be to eat only proteins as supplements from individual amino acids. Clearly not practical for human (unless you have lots of time to spend, lot of will, and lots of faith in the result).
On the other hand, you can moderately reduce MET by simply privileging food with lower MET % (ex: almonds). Josh posted a list of such foods a while ago. The question is does it help or not. I think there is a controversy about the fact that you need to reach a certain threshold of restriction to get any benefit at all. So I really don't know if it could help to moderately reduce MET intake in this way.
Hi Alan,
Well I guess it depends of the date of the publication. That's probably understandable before 2006 but in 2017, that would be surprising.
I have found the following short review very readable and informative about epigenetic reprogramming:
"Bursts of Reprogramming: A Path to Extend Lifespan?"
Salah Mahmoudi and Anne Brunet
https://web.stanford.edu/group/brunet/Mahmoudi%20and%20Brunet,%202016.pdf
Yes, Belmonte et al expressed the 4 factors (called OSKM for short) required to create induced pluripotent stem cells (iPSCs) in progeria mice, but only for a short time so that they didn't actually create iPSCs randomly in their bodies (this caused cancer) but just caused the cells move back towards being younger and rejuvenated the mice. One of the factors c-Myc (incidentally an oncogene), is right next to HTERT so telomeres were extended, and the other factors actually turned back the Horvath clock in these cells. So this process has incredible potential.
I am not sure whether we need to do more than just re-lengthen telomeres as this resets the most important gene expression. At this point we don't know what benefit resetting the rest of the methylated or de-methylated gene expression is giving us, but I would put that speculation firmly in the post-aging syndrome box - I guess we will find out when we have fully dealt with cellular senescence, which has nothing to do with the epigenetic Horvath clock. But that notwithstanding this is the way to go to undo the damage done by MTOR and mtROS, which are driving aging, and which we can currently only slow, not reverse. So yes, very exciting!
On the importance of cellular senescence: I regard cellular senescence as being aging, as we currently experience it (notwithstanding other mechanisms that may kick in later). I will explain my reasons for this opinion. Cells want to grow and divide. This is the state of youth. Even if they are quiescent for a time, young cells have the capability to divide if required. Senescence stops all that, so you have no ability to bounce back and regenerate if required to. The problem with enhancing things like p53 is that this is the choker that holds back youthful growing cells from being young and exuberant and maybe forming cancer. So it is a balancing act. More p53 actually leads to more cellular senescence and more aging. But less p53 leads to a greater chance of cancer. (Additionally more senescence can lead to more cancer in the long run). So we absolutely need to remove senescent cells. Campisi and others are doing this now in clinical trials and it will be the next big thing in medicine. Of course this will only very slightly reduce the rate of aging due to reducing inflammation, you will continue to accumulate more senescent cells and will need to be treated again at some point. And Alan is right that this could be dangerous in the elderly - but not just because of the effects of the treatment (new approaches that are far gentler are in development), but because stem cells will need to be mobilized to replace the aged (senescent) cells, and the very old may not have this capacity. So you can see why max lifespan is not pushed out that far simply by removing senescent cells.
Hi Mark,
Thanks for your comments.
I agree that transient epigenetic reprogramming using the 4 Yamanaka factors looks very exiting and full of potential. This also suggest that epigenetic changes might play an important role in the aging process. Maybe, as you said, we'll even be able to address the post-aging syndrome with this sort of approach.
However, this is still very very early and we'll need to wait for more results to get a better idea (in particular, can it increase the life span of normal mice?).
I am also wondering about the possible risk of cancer associated with the 4 Yamanaka factors. The limit between effective reprogramming and risk of cancer might be tight. Hopefully, they'll be able to figure out a safer approach.
It is tempting to think that epigenetic changes could be the leading cause of mTOR hyperactivation with age but I have not found any paper to back this up so maybe this is just wrong. On the other hand, I am not sure what other molecular changes (than epigenetic ones) could drive that.
Because epigentics is at the forefront of aging research I think there is a tendency to think epigenetics is something magical and must explain everything. But it is just different genes being expressed or not.
MTOR drives insulin resistance, so insulin goes higher, driving MTOR higher too. Absolutely epigenetics will be involved in this, but I don't think it is causal necessarily. I think it more likely that a higher MTOR just accelerates the pace of epigenetic change, as measured by the Horvath clock and probably accelerates telomere loss as well.
These changes are essentially irreversible without telomere elongation or yamanaka factors, so with you I will watch the work of Blasco and Belmonte over the next few years with great interest.
I agree with you that it is likely that MTOR causes some epigenetic changes since, as you mention, higher MTOR correlates with the acceleration of Horvath clock.
On the other hand, I am wondering what difference between an old cell and a young cell can explain that the old cell has a more active MTOR than the young one under the same conditions. I have not found any answer yet in the literature, but it seems plausible to me that the accumulation of epigenetic changes is at least partly responsible for that difference in behavior.
Just as you, I find the recent development around partial epigenetic reprogramming fascinating because it might lead to a better understanding of aging and to more efficient treatments (although I am not sure about the time-scale).
This is absolutely my view on aging too Alan. MTOR is the driver (probably along with MtROS), of aging (including epigenetic change) and reducing MTOR slows aging. But to reverse aging we'll need to actually reverse the changes aging has caused, like epigenetic changes.
I'm a little more optimistic than you, I don't think the FDA and other regulatory bodies will have any choice but to change if they don't want every country on earth populated almost entirely with old people who are not working. And even if they don't the technology is changing so fast that this will soon be completely out of their control. But taking rapamycin is a good insurance policy to make sure we live to see that day.
I need to ask you a question Alan on rapamycin treatment please.
How important do you regard controlling the glucose increase in the blood that may accompany intermittent rapamycin usage? I know this is generally a benign effect of the body saving sugar for the brain, but whilst I initially dropped my Berberine usuage I am now thinking that was a mistake.
Best Regards, M
I'm not sure that is true Alan. Governments are at least paying lip service to extending healthspan, and reducing the burden on health services from things like Alzheimer's.
Plus rich old people want to live longer, so I can see support from the Right on this too.
But I take your point, there will be a lot of resistance from some quarters. My prediction: initial resistance will suddenly flip to wholesale support. but it's anyone's guess when this will happen.
Hi Alan,
Like your humor!
Maybe you are right about the 22th century. It is impossible to say.
However, nobody could have predicted the discovery of IPSC or the CRISP technology back in the 20th century. Nobody would have predicted around 2000 that we would be able to do full genome sequencing for less than 1000$ in 2017. Experts in AI were wrong to predict in 2014 that computers will not beat the world champion at GO before 2025. So maybe some major discovery about aging are lying ahead and we have no clue.
On the other hand, I am sure that back in 1970, everyone was convinced that we would travel to Mars long before 2017.
I think that if any country in the world develop anti-aging to a point where its population live significantly longer, US will follow soon. They don't like to be behind others when it comes to technology.
Hi Alan, Mark,
My view of aging is that I don't understand it. I am really impressed by Blagosklonny because, in particular, he was able to predict that rapamycin would delay aging before experiments on mice confirmed it. And his theory seems to fit very well with current facts. However, as far as I can tell, he does not say much about how the aging quasi-program is implemented in our cells or in our body. He describes very well the effects of the quasi-program though, but not its precise mechanism. So it seems to me that some progress could be made on that point. However, it could be that I am completely missing something.
Hi Alan,
Thanks for your explanations. I think I mostly understand and agree with all of what you said.
I will reread Blago 2006 and others of his papers. I think I need also to better understand the whole TOR pathway.
I agree that the time-line for anti-aging treatment based on epigenetic reprogramming could be very far away. I really don't know. In an optimistic case, it could be 20 years from now though. Do you dismiss that possibility?
Hi Paul,
My current understanding is that it is important for aging to keep level of insulin low but Alan is the expert. This is why I am currently interested in acarbose. Male mice on acarbose live significanlty longer according to the ITP but they don't have lower blood sugar than control nor they have level of H1b significanlty lower. However, they have insulin level much lower than control.
Thanks Alan for all these informations about insulin and Amylin. This is one more reason for me to walk more. I love walking but just need to find more time for it.
Hi Paul,
There might be a more recent paper from ITP about acarbose but this one is interesting:
"Acarbose, 17-α-estradiol, and nordihydroguaiaretic acid extend mouse lifespan preferentially in males"
In particular, look at figure 3:E (insulin level on males). For me, it was really interesting to see that.
There are on-going life span experiments on acarbose so I expect some updated data soon (likely 2018)
Hi Alan,
Thanks.
based on what you said about acarbose I will not consider taking it. Will try to reduce my carbs instead to lower insulin.
I don't remember the details but I think the ITP guys do not completely agree that it is a CR mimetic. They highlight some differences with CR. I will reread to better understand their point but will stop consider it for myself.
Good to have experts on this site!
Hi Alan,
I understand your point about acarbose. Just want to mention what the ITP said about difference with CR to make sure I am not missing anything.
"Acarbose reduced weight more in females than in males (Fig. (Fig.4).4). Thus, the lengthened survival for ACA-treated males vs. ACA-treated females cannot be explained by changes in body weight or seen simply as the effect of overall caloric restriction. It is not currently known whether slower weight gain is a direct effect of loss of caloric content absorbed or represents a modulation of CNS and gastrointestinal endocrine circuits, perhaps with modification of appetite and associated metabolic set points. The data in Fig. Fig.33 provide an initial indication of key physiological parameters in young adult ACA-treated mice. The lower fasting glucose values, in combination with the unaltered HbA1c levels, are consistent with the idea that ACA may diminish the amplitude of postprandial spikes in plasma glucose levels, with lower peak levels but higher trough levels in both sexes. In both blood levels of FGF21 and activity, effects of ACA differed from effects of DR (Fig 3C,F), and thus benefits of ACA on lifespan may not be attributed simply to diminished caloric intake."
Hi Alan,
Also, I am not terribly tempted to experienced the side effects you have mentioned with acarbose. I knew about it but was not sure about the magnitude. Looks like to be a non-starter the way you describe it. Not sure why it is popular in Asia and Europe.
Hi Paul,
My understanding of the study was similar to yours and in particular I was very interested by the modulation of postprandial spikes in plasma glucose. However, since I am not an expert, I tend to be very cautious about my own conclusions, but I am really glad that you find it interesting too.
However, side effects of acarbose do not look particularly attractive so if Life extension has a product with similar mode of action and which does not even require a prescription, then I am definitely interested. Do you happen to remember which product it is?
I have ordered glycemic guard from LE. Interestingly, it is just one pill a day, not one pill before every meal like acarbose. It seems to have same effect as ACA but of course we have no mice study to prove it. Will give it a try.
Akshay, I read you were mentioning Gymnema sylvestre. Is it supposed to be more efficient?
Alan,
you might be right that eating low card diet is same as taking ACA. However, to my knowledge, low card diet has never increased mice life span (in particular max LS). It could be, as you mention, that ACA acted as a CR mimetic but then it should have increased both male and female LS in similar ways. Also, why insulin levels of females did not drop similarly to males? Maybe an artifact of the experiment? I really don't know but I find it puzzling.
Hi Akshay,
Just quickly checked on Gymnema Sylvestre on webmd (not sure if it is a reliable site BTW). However, they mention one good thing (decrease absorption of sugar) and one bad thing (might stimulate insulin production). Might be good to fight diabete on short term but not so good for aging. We probably need to double check with other sources as I don't know how reliable this info is:
"How does it work?
Gymnema contains substances that decrease the absorption of sugar from the intestine. Gymnema may also increase the amount of insulin in the body and increase the growth of cells in the pancreas, which is the place in the body where insulin is made"
Alan,
Thanks for looking at the study about acarbose!
Akshay,
You might be right: we need to look at it more seriously than what I did.
Great discussion all.
Yes it is strange that acarbose has a life extension affect, given we know cutting carbs generally doesn't help, but cutting proteins does, hence why rapamycin works but blocking protein synthesis. Incidentally it is really hard to cut protein from your diet, plus I don't think you'd want to.
I think acarbose is a good way to lose weight if you really needed too. Probably even more effective than Berberine or metformin, albeit with unpleasant side effects. Another possibility is glucosamine, which competes with glucose in mitochondria, and is shown to reduce mortality in HUMANS.
'Use of Glucosamine and Chondroitin in Relation to Mortality' 2012, Bell et al.
As Alan says this is all about stopping your cells becoming senescent once they have stopped (or slowed down) cycling. Any measure we can take to reduce MTOR, insulin or IGF will do this.
Of course it would be much better if we could keep those cells cycling at the speed they used to. Then we'd be truly becoming younger, not just fighting aging as it accelerates into old age.
Hi Mark,
I agree that only reducing protein (and particularly methionine) extend LS in mice in an isocaloric way. There is a great paper from Gustavo Barja 2017 explaining all of that. I remember also a study from Fontana et al. on human CR volunteers which showed that only those who had a reduced protein intake had lower IGF levels (than non CR people).
My take is that it is probably a good habit to avoid eating an excessive number of proteins. Going beyond that would require a careful control and would be too complicated to implement for me.
I do take glucosamine based on the paper you mentioned and on another one showing LS extension on mice, which I have found convincing enough.
Something is still not completely clear to me about acarbose. The ITP has already completed 2 LS study (the one I posted in 2009 + another one in 2012 where mice are started on ACA at 16 months). And 3 more are on going. They certainly think something is going on. I am not interested anymore in trying ACA but I would like to understand better their motivation.
Methione is needed to copy DNA, so you can see why it is so effective at slowing aging.
But it is almost impossible to cut it out of your diet, that is why rapamycin is such a good option in comparison because you don't get the horrible cravings you'd get if you actually did manage to cut it down. Plus is would be very hard to do it intermittently. Better just to intermittently fast and get used to that, I think.
I am not sure if any other these paths are independent. MTOR and AMPK are just opposite sides of the same coin, only MTOR is much stronger. Hence all the AMPK activators are inferior to rapamycin, as far as I can tell. It would be really nice to find a completely different pathway. Might have to look back into those worm studies for that.
Mark,
Paul and I have looked recently at the following studies in worms:
"Slowing ageing using drug synergy in C. elegans"
They had pretty interesting LS numbers using combinations of Rapamycin + Allantoin + Rifampicin on worms and flies
It seems that the mode of action of Rifampicin is completely different than Rapa. In the following study they claim that RIF extends life span of C.Elegans through AGE inhibition:
“Rifampicin reduces advanced glycation end products and activates DAF-16 to increase lifespan in Caenorhabditis elegans”
However, this is on worms/flies so probably need to take that with a grain of salt.
Hi Alan,
ARBs look indeed very interesting for anti-aging. Are there any side effects? In particular, can they lower the BP of people with already low BP?
Thanks
As far as i am concerned MTOR inhibition (either direct or through AMPK activation), and mtROS are independent drivers of aging, although many pathways such as MTOR and AMPK appear to affect both somewhat. It would be interesting to see if angiotensin inhibitors/blockers use a different pathway to lower ROS. There are effectively two ways to do this. Either lower endogenous ROS production (best), enhancing mitophagy does this for example, or increasing antioxidant defence, either exogenously, throuh say a mitochondrial antioxidant, or endogenously through a supplement that activates Nrf-2.
I don't take any angiotensin inhibitor because I think the mitophagy I do through Nicotinamide and Ribose serves the same purpose, but I could be wrong.
I also have the idea that increasing adiponectin could be a real winner for several pathways, though I've yet to try that yet.
Unfortunately I wouldn't expect an AGE inhibitor or breaker that works in worms and flies to help humans, as we live so much longer we build up crosslinks they never have time to experience. Don't forget the drug Algebrium worked in everything up to and including monkeys, but nada with humans.
Hi Alan,
Thanks for pointing out limiting factor about ARBs and BP. Will definitely consider it if my BP raise.
Mark,
Good point about AGE breakers. I am not sure if the mode of action of RIF and Algebrium are similar though (Algebrium is it ALT 711 right?) :
"For its effect on longevity, rifampicin requires DAF-18 (nematode PTEN) as well as JNK-1 and activates DAF-16, the FOXO homolog. Interestingly, the drug treatment modulates transcription of a different subset of DAF-16 target genes, those not controlled by the conserved Insulin-IGF-1-like signaling pathway."
I would still be interested to see what RIF does on mice.
Hi Paul, yes you are definitely on to something. At the cellular level a senescent cell is basically an old cell that can no longer divide. It doesn't take too many of these to kill an organism, so anything that slows down the accumulation of senescent cells has to be a good thing, no matter the pathway. It remains to be seen how effective senolytics is, as it's success will largely depend on how well stem cells can be mobilised to replace the removed cells. That is why extending telomeres is preferable as it also acheive this aim.
1 more reply
Paul Rivas,
On the other hand there are many other plants, besides ashwagandha (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4658772/), presenting in studies positive effects on the autonomic nervous system and/or in reduction in lactic acid production. Among these plants are quercetin, resveratrol, curcumin and crataegus oxyacantha (Hawthorn).
After the eye-opening study from Yale scientist Vishwa Deep Dixit which showed inflamed nerve linked macrophages hugging the sympathetic nerves in adipose tissue blocking messages from neurotransmitters and thereby not allowing the utilization of the visceral fat during energy demands is now followed by another study also exposing inflamed macrophage related dysfunction:
'Sympathetic neuron associated macrophages contribute to obesity by importing and metabolizing norepinephrine' by Ana Domingo et al Howard Hughes Medical Institute published in Nature Medicine 9th October 2017
One therapeutic strategy can be to target the
norepinephrine import and degradation enzyme and neuro-immunometabolic signalling or alternatively reverse the root cause in both the dysfunctions: chronic inflammation
Hi Akshay
This is about BROWN FAT IN MICE.
Humans do not have brown fat.
In mice they burn brown fat to stay warm.
This paper show macrophages can interfere with function of nerves. That is very interesting and may relate to nerve diseases like MS perhaps.
It has ZERO connection with obesity in humans. In humans visceral fat not under sympathetic control. Humans don't burn brown fat to stay warm. We shiver and hair stands up to create dead air space.
This is another example of what I call junk science. One observation and then run with it.
Very nice finding, in MICE, sympathetic nerves use to burn brown fat. However, when apply to humans without scintilla of evidence has any relation to humans and obesity this is junk science.
Nothing on you, Akshay, and thanks for posting interesting paper.
Alan,
I know you mean well and are intensely allergic to junk science. Having said that apparently we do have brown fat behind the neck. This study doesn't mention brown fat of mice but their white fat which turns to brown and leads to weightloss once the enzyme leading to import and degradation of norepinephrine was blocked. This is what the scientists involved in the study have to say "Genetic ablation of Slc6a2in SAMs increases brown adipose tissue (BAT) content, causes browning of white fat, increases thermogenesis, and leads to substantial and sustained weight loss in obese mice. We further show that this pathway is conserved, as human sympathetic ganglia also contain SAMs expressing the analogous molecular machinery for NE clearance, which thus constitutes a potential target for obesity treatment"
Mind you Alan this is said by Dr. Ana Domingo winner of Philanthropies Award of $650,000 given to 41 scientists from 16 countries selected to be the brightest emerging scientists by likes of HHMI, Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation, Welcome Trust and Colouste Gulbenkian Foundation. While giving her the reward they said "Ana Domingos is investigating new molecular strategies to fight obesity. She has discovered a direct link between fat tissue and neurons of the sympathetic nervous system, which plays a role in burning fat. Stimulating these neurons could one day lead to a new treatment to cause fat loss."
They said “This is an outstanding group of scientists who will push biomedical research forward worldwide, and we are thrilled to support them alongside our philanthropic partners,”
She was selected from 1,400 leading scientists in the world.
This is her pedigree "Domingos is group leader of the Obesity laboratory at the Instituto Gulbenkian de Ciência since 2013. Before her PhD in neurobiology with Leslie Vosshal at the Rockefeller, Dr Ana Domingos studied mathematics at the University of Lisbon. At Rockefeller, she started her Obesity research career in 2006 as a postdoctoral associate of Jeffrey Friedman, who discovered the hormone Leptin. As a postdoc, Dr Ana Domingos used optogenetic tools to identify a neuronal circuit in the brain mediating the reward value of sugar. She discovered that Leptin has a regulatory effect on this circuit, influencing how much one likes sugar. In the fall of 2013, she started the Obesity lab, at the Instituto Gulbenkian de Ciência, in her home country Portugal. Domingos´ lab was the first to visualize the long-time conjectured peripheral neuron-adipose junctions in the adipose tissue. Furthermore, her lab demonstrated that localized activation of these peripheral neurons is sufficient for lipolysis and fat mass reduction. Thus direct and targeted pharmacologic activation of sympathetic inputs to adipose tissues could represent a novel strategy for the induction of fat loss and a new anti-obesity therapy that would circumvent the challenges of drug delivery to the brain. These findings were published in Cell, and were widely disseminated in Nature, Science as well as Cell Press. Dr Ana Domingos received international awards such as those given by The Human Frontiers Science Program and the European Molecular Biology Organization."
Hi Akshay,
My problem is with the last 5 words in abstract, "potential target for obesity treatment". Paper in Nature Medicine, which does not appear to be open access, so can't read paper, only abstract.
Paper appears to be perfectly fine study about mice adipose tissue and thermogenesis and regulation by sympathetic nervous system and norepinephrine.
I appreciate your respect for my concern about junk science.
To me, junk science is when an author of paper makes a big leap beyond their finding in the study and speculates about application outside their actual finding.
Here the problem is jump from mice to human obesity. Perhaps if had the entire paper, the speculation about application to humans would be much more restrained.
Everything I know about visceral, midline obesity in humans, especially as applies to older people has nothing to do with thermogenesis and sympathetic nervous system control or brown fat-like issues.
My understanding is adipose tissue in mice and adipose tissue in humans is acting like two different organs. In mice, brown fat or white fat that mice can convert to brown fat is acting as temperature control organ under sympathetic nervous system control for thermogenesis. This is not the case in humans and does not appear to be the case in human central midline obesity.
This mouse theory of obesity challenges everything that I believe as constituting the basic understanding of obesity in humans. To demonstrate this application to humans would require very large number of studies in humans, clinical studies and basic science studies in humans.
However, since don't have entire paper, perhaps word "potential" is used as anything is possible.
In summary, I have no issue with findings in paper as regards mice, it is the application to humans
Alan,
I for once agree with you that just because has been successful in mice does not mean it will automatically translate to humans. In fact as per the few really well researched articles on the web very few do. So yes they do not have any evidence with regards similar benefit in humans and till that time it is just speculation. What I found interesting is their finding that "We further show that this pathway is conserved, as human sympathetic ganglia also contain SAMs expressing the analogous molecular machinery for NE clearance, which thus constitutes a potential target for obesity treatment”
In the main study they must have 'shown' evidence for this through some experiments. Also I respect the education and career trajectory of Dr. Domingos - she has done pastoral with Friedman d8scoverer of Leptin. So given the above is promising enough for me to get excited that there is chance of either if the 2 studies I shared going through to human clinical trials in future as obesity is a major epidemic in our modern world. Another take away for me is that I personally do not need to wait for clinical trials as the underlying cause in both macrophage dysfunctions is chronic inflammation. I can take natural compounds which have evidence in trials to bring down rogue inflammation. Rapamycin too indirectly provides that benefit. So I thought the readers may find it interesting from that point of view.
Humans do not have large quantities of brown adipose tissue, but to say they have none at all is extreme.
The conventional wisdom was that humans are born with brown fat but this quickly dissipates as the child matures. But it now appears that some deposits of brown adipose tissue persist into adulthood.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2699856/
Hi Michael Askay:
Here is a link discussing "Anatomical Locations of Human Brown Adipose Tissue
Functional Relevance and Implications in Obesity and Type 2 Diabetes"
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3661606/
Thank you Heather
You are welcome Akshay.
Sorry I spelled your name incorrectly
The AHA does not support the claim that coconut oil is healthy (at least, from the point of view of CVD) due to its impact on cholesterol level (raising HDL but also LDL). However, they do not take into account that coconut oil is rich in MCT (in particular lauric acid which is BTW considered as MCT according to wikipedia), so maybe they are not looking at the full picture.
"Dietary Fats and Cardiovascular Disease: A Presidential Advisory From the American Heart Association"
There is a section dedicated to coconut oil which start with the following:
"A recent survey reported that 72% of the American
public rated coconut oil as a “healthy food” compared
with 37% of nutritionists.94 This disconnect between lay
and expert opinion can be attributed to the marketing of
coconut oil in the popular press"
For those interested in the story of rapamycin and TOR discovery, I recommend the following paper:
"TOR, the Gateway to Cellular Metabolism, Cell Growth, and Disease"
Cell Volume 171, Issue 1, 21 September 2017
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0092867417309443
I note that the author is quite optimistic about the future of mTOR inhibitors:
"By identifying the rapamycin target, mTOR, and playing a major role in defining its function in cell signaling and disease, the legacy of Michael Hall’s original discovery is being further defined as mTOR inhibitors and inhibitors of other pathway components are winding their way through preclinical and clinical trials for cancer, diabetes, obesity, heart disease, neurodegenerative disorders, and aging"
I'm from Canada and would like to try out Rapamycin, can anyone recommend a source where I can buy it?
Hi Alan
I wasn't attempting to be malicious, That was the title of the Study, and since I'm male and on rapamycin it got me a bit concerned. But I asked your opinion because I'm not as familiar with the details of rapamycin as you are.
But I do appreciate the response and clarification.
You are a very kind person, Paul.
Paul:
Thank you for posting the information regarding the study
Hi Aldebaran
In terms of life extension I would certainly agree . There's rapamycin and not much else, though C60 is intriguing.